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That only applies if our economy doesn't expand. When it expands there are many jobs that are created.
The economy hasn't expanded in decades, all it has done is bubbled. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. And those in the middle chased the next "big thing", just like the pyramid schemes of the mid 70's. Those that got in and out early got rich and those that didn't got burned.
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Originally Posted by wheelsup
The market does control labor supply. Look at nurses. There was a shortage so pay went up. More people got into it. Shortage solved.
Once the shortage is solved, the lower pay will follow.
One thing left out of the discussion is the fact that everyone is expected to job hop every 5 to 7 years now. That works ok for younger workers, but once you turn 40 ain't so good anymore.
When your profession you invested 4 years to train for in college and 20 or so years working no longer exists or is so flooded with workers, you are suddenly "over qualified" to get work, are you supposed to go back to college for retraining at 50+?
One thing left out of the discussion is the fact that everyone is expected to job hop every 5 to 7 years now. That works ok for younger workers, but once you turn 40 ain't so good anymore.
When your profession you invested 4 years to train for in college and 20 or so years working no longer exists or is so flooded with workers, you are suddenly "over qualified" to get work, are you supposed to go back to college for retraining at 50+?
I think the assumption that its ok for younger workers to be forced to keep "retraining", because they have less time invested in any particuliar career is a bad one.
Nobody should be forced to go in to tens of thousands of dollars of debt and spend countless hours chasing the new thing. It doesnt matter the age.
When did it become ok simply to accept the status quo regardless of what it is?
No, it's work in the boundaries and work with what works. What works better, standing with a sign on the side of the street every day as people race by you or working up the political ladder and drafting bills to change how things work? The first would work if you had a large group of people, even if you just champion it online and do it in your spare time it does little without the group. The second way would require fewer to convince and you earn a decent living as well.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
Funny you mention your kids.....I wonder if you are going to be singing the same tune when your kids (or if we are all very lucky, grandkids) need a bachelors degree to work at Burger King, for Burger King wages.
Ah yes, but that's your opinion and I have mine. No one knows what's going to happen in 20 years, we could be ruled by giant mutant squirrels for all I know. My own opinion, based on what I can see with my own eyes be true, doesn't support that right now. That might change, but review and adaptation is the always necessary in every facet of life...the only constant in life is change.
Either way, it's moot...the simple fact is after going to college and masters I have the means to support my kid/kids through the program of choice (I cross my fingers nothing dumb). Many of the people I know without the similar education cannot by their means alone. For me the discussion ends, it's as simple as staring at the glaring differences in the people I know and see the end results of each decision. Plus many that didn't get it, and had the opportunity without a big debt, talk to me about how it's one of the biggest personal and professional regrets.
Ah yes, but that's your opinion and I have mine. No one knows what's going to happen in 20 years, we could be ruled by giant mutant squirrels for all I know.
Its not an opinion, its fact. 30 years ago, most accountants didnt even have an associate degree. It was viewed as primarily the equivalent of secretarial work, and to this day, some employers still lump distinctive accounting functions in with "office manager" or "admin assistant" title. Those accountants with degrees almost exclusively were in management positions.
Now, it requires a 4 year degree in most cities to do accounts payable. If you arent familiar with what accounts payable is, the job consists of little more then writing checks and paying bills. This is something millions of people who have a high school education or less, do every single day.
It does not require the skills obtained with a 4 year degree to do this. You do not need to know advanced accounting concepts, you do not need to know purchase lease evaluation, depreciation schedules, time value of money, or anything of the like.
So why is the degree now required? The skill level needed to do the job certainly didnt increase over the past 30 years, paying bills is still pretty much paying bills....so what did.....oh yeah, the number of people with bachelors degrees in the field.
So, what happens, when there are enough people with bachelors degrees to fill every job there is (we are over half way right this minute)? Do you think we are just going to be a country of doctors, lawyers, and business managers? Of course we arent. We will still be primarily a middle to low wage service economy.
So, maybe the wages will just go up for those service jobs? Well history shows us this isnt the case either. Even though we are more educated and skilled then our parents, we are making the exact same money, and our children will likely make the same money as us (or even less), regardless of their education or skill level.
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Originally Posted by subsound
My own opinion, based on what I can see with my own eyes be true, doesn't support that right now. That might change, but review and adaptation is the always necessary in every facet of life...the only constant in life is change.
Thats the problem, its not that easy to change. Change in this case requires 25k+ and 4 years. You cannot just jump a career any more. The experience, training and education levels required are far too steep these days.
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Originally Posted by subsound
Either way, it's moot...the simple fact is after going to college and masters I have the means to support my kid/kids through the program of choice (I cross my fingers nothing dumb).
This means nothing really other then you are one of the first on the boat. Sure, money is good if you happen to get in on something first.....but eventually it will be flooded. The number of MBA's is rising every single day, and as more and more people figure out that bachelors degrees are of little to no value any where in the business field, like good little sheeple, they will push themselves further in debt to get that MBA.
Guess what, suddenly, your MBA wont be as valuable, and guess what else....suddenly, you are going to watch the prevailing premium paid for that MBA fall. Guess what else, grad schools will become less selective in their applicants, and it will get to the point that 4 year Universities have become. Hell, you can already pretty much buy an MBA from schools like Phoenix Online, its not too much longer before you can do the same from real deal brick and mortars.
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Originally Posted by subsound
Many of the people I know without the similar education cannot by their means alone. For me the discussion ends, it's as simple as staring at the glaring differences in the people I know and see the end results of each decision. Plus many that didn't get it, and had the opportunity without a big debt, talk to me about how it's one of the biggest personal and professional regrets.
You are exactly right, people who dont have educations are lagging further and further behind. I wont fight you there.
However, why is this? When a bachelors degree becomes the minimum requirement for employment, what happens to every one else? That is EXACTLY what we are seeing now. People who have just a high school degree are more unemployable by the day, and eventually, they wont even qualify to pick lettuce. Who wants to hire high school guy, when bachelor degree guy is looking for work, and will take the same wage....
See, the reason why there is such a growing income gap between those with degrees, and those without, is because those with out are watching their median wage erode, and not that those with degrees are seeing any significant benefit. The benefit of having a degree is no longer "a good job", its simply having "any shot at a decent job at all", and soon enough it will be "having any job at all".
Computer programmer was the same way. Folks learned on their own. I got a 4 year degree in Computer Science and 20 years ago when I started there were plenty of programmers around with HS or 2 year degrees and they were good. Now, forget even trying to get a job without at least a 4 year degree; many want Masters now.
Computer programmer was the same way. Folks learned on their own. I got a 4 year degree in Computer Science and 20 years ago when I started there were plenty of programmers around with HS or 2 year degrees and they were good. Now, forget even trying to get a job without at least a 4 year degree; many want Masters now.
The funny thing is, many of the best programmers youll ever find are still self taught. They are just writing viruses, cracking security codes, creating independent games, cracking games, etc. The only difference is that theyve been mostly blocked out of legitimate high end developer employment due to the insane educational/experience requirements.
I just had this thought in another forum and thought it made sense to post here. I made more money in high school stocking groceries at a grocery store than I did my first 3 years as a pilot after spending around $80,000 on my education.
Oh, and I only made $10/hr stocking groceries not that long ago in 2000. That's not even adjusted for inflation!!!
I just had this thought in another forum and thought it made sense to post here. I made more money in high school stocking groceries at a grocery store than I did my first 3 years as a pilot after spending around $80,000 on my education.
Oh, and I only made $10/hr stocking groceries not that long ago in 2000. That's not even adjusted for inflation!!!
WTF?
I made more money stocking shelves and putting together orders in a warehouse then I did in my first 3 years out of college as well. Likely, if I would have continued in that job, I probably would be making exactly the same as I am now, at the warehouse, and Im 5 years removed from college as of May.
Well, I picked the wrong major for being stuck in Hampton Roads, Va. However, I could not have possibly predicted the events that happened to me beyond my control, when I chose my major.
However, I feel, regardless of whether or not I happened to pick the "right" major for that moment, it would be just a matter of time before it became devalued and worthless.
There is no way the US economy can absorb all of the college grads without the pay stagnating or falling for all majors, and the requirements for employment becoming steeper.
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