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Old 08-22-2009, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,222,476 times
Reputation: 4343

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicet4 View Post
Parents do not owe their children a college education.

If you want to, and if you can, that's great but parents do not owe it.

You do owe them moral support and maybe dinner on Sunday if they come home.
And kids don't owe their parents a number of things when they age. But, that is not really the point. You don't "owe" your kids a college education, help starting a business, help with a down-payment on a home, etc, but all of these things give your kids a great head start...one that will pay great dividends both for your kids and likely for yourself too.

Anyhow, this is not a generational issue, more so a cultural and social class issue. There is a reason why so many Asian kids from modest Asian (culturally speaking) families tend up doing well, while white kids from similar families don't do so well. And why upper class parents...typically raise kids that end up to be upper-class adults that make substantially more than others.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:11 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 11,178,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
Correct on that paragraph. In the new paradigm all your scheme would effect is that you would have to downgrade homes every 7 years as nominal appreciation rates will not overcome transaction costs in the span of time of less than 10 years. Which is diametrically opposed to the reason people got into home ownership for in the first place.
While I see your point, I don't necessarily think it's impossible for a Gen-Yer to pursue this path. If your family income increases and your employer relo's you from an expensive area to a less expensive area, it may indeed be doable. (That's what happened to us.) The challenge is to keep your desires in check and stick to the plan.
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Rhode Island (Splash!)
1,150 posts, read 2,470,829 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Anyhow, this is not a generational issue, more so a cultural and social class issue. There is a reason why so many Asian kids from modest Asian (culturally speaking) families tend up doing well, while white kids from similar families don't do so well. And why upper class parents...typically raise kids that end up to be upper-class adults that make substantially more than others.
Boy, a thousand reps for that one! Not enough people recognize this parenting dynamic.

If done right, it's a very benign nurturing rather than spoiling.
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,369 posts, read 3,054,883 times
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Bob,

For me and I think many other people around my age (28-34) we are more interested in living a life that's free of a multitude of financial liabilities and, instead, have freedom and the ability to do what we want. These financial liabilities include things like children, huge houses, car payments, etc. We write a check when we want to buy a car. When we buy a house we will put down 20%. Our financial lives are responsible - we certainly don't put gucci on credit cards, but we have no problem buying nice stuff with money we already made.

Ultimately, we want to live in a modest house in a decent (not bad, not top end) neighborhood close to the city. We want to basically have an upper middle class income in a middle class area, since our lifestyles seem to match up well with that demographic. Consequently we'd rather take that savings and retire early, travel, do what we want, be free. My parents traded up houses three times - I have no interest in doing that - one house and keeping it forever is great. My parents got college educations, neither of my grandparents had anything beyond a high school education. Both me and my wife have graduate degrees from pretty highly ranked universities. To not send kids to top schools would be selling them short and destroying the generational progression that both of our families have enjoyed. To expect it and not support them would be hypocrisy, and that's not a personal trait I want to pass on to any child. I realize it's not necessary and required, but we've do lots of things that aren't necessary or required. Perhaps not passing along the family traits to another human being isn't fufilling one of the natural aspects of the human condition, but no decision comes without downsides and sacrifices.

We think the system is set up in such a way that we either have to a) kill ourselves financially or b) sell our kids short if we have them or c) change our lifestyle and outlook in fundamental ways that will dramatically alter the people that we are. To us raising kids in the type of economic environment/situation our generation is facing is just not realistic and will cause us such a shock in our lifestyle that I think it will impact our happiness greatly. That has nothing to do with giving up a BMW for a minivan. It goes down to fundamental ideals and goals of life. Some people's "base line" lives are very well suited to having kids and their goals match up very well with having a family. Ours really does not from our perspective.
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Old 08-23-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,805 posts, read 17,584,393 times
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Default LIFE Happens!

drshang wrote:
one house and keeping it forever is great.
This is indeed a great idea....if your life remains static. But just maybe, your tastes will change over time, or your neighborhood and/or city detariorate, a better opportunity in another city presents itself to you, etc, etc, etc. You might choose to modify even the best of intentions. This sometimes annoying thing called LIFE keeps happening day by day, and it doesn't always pan out according to your intentions. LIFE happens!
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Rhode Island (Splash!)
1,150 posts, read 2,470,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drshang View Post
Both me and my wife have graduate degrees from pretty highly ranked universities.
Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Does anyone else get the unintentional joke?


β€œI” is a nominative pronoun and is used as a subject of a sentence or clause, while β€œme” is an objective pronoun and used as an object.


Try this next time drfakediplma, take the "my wife" out and read the sentence. "Me have graduate degree from highly ranked university". Does that sound right to you?

The only way I could forgive you for that one is if you're NOT a native English speaker.
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Old 08-23-2009, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,884,825 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is typical for white lower-middle class to middle class families. But it has a number of disadvantages. Your kids are in a sense your greatest retirement savings, helping them at their start of their life is likely to pay off towards the end of yours. Refusing to help them because it will "make them strong" is likely to be meant with a similar attitude when you're older.

Of course the opposite extreme has negative consequences too, giving your kids everything they want is not good. But helping your kids with college, buy a home, start a business, etc is a way of giving them a head start in life. As an investment its likely to pay off in numerous ways.

I think a lot of boomers are going to be surprised at how unhelpful their kids are when they age, but after continuously telling their kids that they should stop whining and and "do things themselves" it should be expected.
I view it somewhat differently. My basic responsibilities are/were:

1. To raise my kids to be morally upright and self-sufficient from launch, with a solid understanding and appreciation of the value of work, money, and their responsibilities to their families and community.

2. To save and plan so that I will not be dependent upon or a burden on my kids.

I don't hold it against my parents for not living like paupers or sinking themselves in debt to send me to university. And if they had, they would probably be financially dependent on me now rather than retired and self-sufficient.

I also think that there are millions of people out there that, despite having been given much by parents that drank the "nothing's too good for junior" Kool Aid, do not and never will feel any obligation to help their parents, as they were raised with the common American societal belief that they were entitled to what their parents gave them in the first place.

You can borrow money to fund your own college education with a reasonable expectation of seeing a solid return on your investment in yourself. You can't generally borrow the money you should have saved to retire on. Major outlays late in life for a child's post-secondary education, assistance with purchase of a home, or help with startup of a business--when one's own financial future is nowhere close to secured, is a real risk. The child could die, marry a spouse that would not permit repayment in kind later or leave your child financially devastated in a divorce, or the kid could just prove to be a typically ungrateful member of his/her generation. And in this increasingly mobile society, the odds that the kids will even be nearby as you age grow ever longer as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id
Anyhow, this is not a generational issue, more so a cultural and social class issue. There is a reason why so many Asian kids from modest Asian (culturally speaking) families tend up doing well, while white kids from similar families don't do so well. And why upper class parents...typically raise kids that end up to be upper-class adults that make substantially more than others.
I attribute the success of asian kids much more to having a strong work ethic inculcated in them from early childhood, not from having their parents pay their way.

I'm not so sure that upper-class kids are "typically" becoming upper-class adults, either. I've observed a lot of downward mobility...a fine arts degree from Wellesley funded by well-meaning parents doesn't necessarily translate into a future upper-class existence.
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Old 08-23-2009, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,369 posts, read 3,054,883 times
Reputation: 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by POhdNcrzy View Post
Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Does anyone else get the unintentional joke?


“I” is a nominative pronoun and is used as a subject of a sentence or clause, while “me” is an objective pronoun and used as an object.


Try this next time drfakediplma, take the "my wife" out and read the sentence. "Me have graduate degree from highly ranked university". Does that sound right to you?

The only way I could forgive you for that one is if you're NOT a native English speaker.
I really couldn't care less what you think of my grammar or if you forgive me for anything. You are welcome to continue grasping at straws to attack something irrelevant about my post. It just makes you look bad - not me.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,222,476 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I view it somewhat differently. My basic responsibilities are/were:
I'm not talking about what you're "basic responsibilities" are as a parent. Rather I'm suggesting helping your kids with certain items can be a great investment both for them and you.

Parents have the opportunity to give their kids a significant head start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I also think that there are millions of people out there that, despite having been given much by parents that drank the "nothing's too good for junior" Kool Aid,
This is not what I'm talking about. Buying fancy cars, a bunch of junk, etc for your kids does not do much at all for them. Its unlikely to improve their lives in the future at all. But not having to worry about college debt after college, getting help purchasing your first home, getting help starting a business, etc can all have significant ramification for their long term success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Major outlays late in life for a child's post-secondary education, assistance with purchase of a home, or help with startup of a business--when one's own financial future is nowhere close to secured, is a real risk.
I would not suggest someone put themselves in financial risk to help your kids, obviously some parents simply don't have the money to do this sort of thing. But the majority of middle-class Americans can easily save money for their kids education, etc. You do after all have 18 years. Depending on whether your kids can live at home or not, that amounts to saving around $1,000~$2,000 a year (assuming you can get on average 5%).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I attribute the success of asian kids much more to having a strong work ethic inculcated in them from early childhood, not from having their parents pay their way.
Right, different parenting! Asian parents are much more involved in their kids lives and push them to work hard, but part of this deal is that they support them well. Not paying for your kids college is seen as low-class.

Anyhow, how they push their kids and how they support them financial is very much related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I'm not so sure that upper-class kids are "typically" becoming upper-class adults, either. I've observed a lot of downward mobility...a fine arts degree from Wellesley funded by well-meaning parents doesn't necessarily translate into a future upper-class existence.
People typically become like their parents regardless of the social class. In terms of a fine arts degree, are you under the impress that upper class families are going to allow their sons to major in that? The vast majority would never allow it, unless they displayed an amazing degree of talent in art. Now, they may allow their daughters to major in fine arts because their daughters are expected to marry someone with wealth.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,884,825 times
Reputation: 1702
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm not talking about what you're "basic responsibilities" are as a parent. Rather I'm suggesting helping your kids with certain items can be a great investment both for them and you.

Parents have the opportunity to give their kids a significant head start.
And that can be done without continuing to support them financially after they've reached majority with the ability to go forth and earn things for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is not what I'm talking about. Buying fancy cars, a bunch of junk, etc for your kids does not do much at all for them.
It's not what I'm writing about, either. I'm writing about parents spending >100K to send junior to a name-brand university, or ponying up for a house down payment the child should have saved himself etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I would not suggest someone put themselves in financial risk to help your kids, obviously some parents simply don't have the money to do this sort of thing. But the majority of middle-class Americans can easily save money for their kids education, etc. You do after all have 18 years. Depending on whether your kids can live at home or not, that amounts to saving around $1,000~$2,000 a year (assuming you can get on average 5%).
$2000 a year for 18 years at 1.5% above inflation (assumption 5% IRR and 3.5% mean inflation rate) yields about $41K in today's dollars. That's hardly enough for a 4-year university education, even at a state school.

The majority of middle-class Americans are not and probably will not be ready for retirement. Few middle-class Americans can truly afford sending several kids to college and saving for retirement...and an oversized house...and three cars...and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Right, different parenting! Asian parents are much more involved in their kids lives and push them to work hard, but part of this deal is that they support them well. Not paying for your kids college is seen as low-class.
We were involved in our kids' lives, and pushed them hard. One was not academically inclined...college immediately after HS would have been a waste of time and money. He's succeeding in the military. Hopefully he will go to school later with the GI Bill benefits he's earning and the understanding of the value of education borne of real-world experience. One had opportunities for scholarships, but did not want the commitments that came with them, and is working her way through school. One won a full ride scholarship to engineering school. Each is succeeding in is/her own way and under his/her own power. They would not have been able to succeed without what we taught them, but they are more than able to succeed without being spoon-fed. And yes, they ARE stronger for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Anyhow, how they push their kids and how they support them financial is very much related.
But one does not require the other. The effort that goes into making a child ready and well-armed for college (self-disciplined, trained in the techniques of study, solid reading/writing/critical thinking skills etc) is far more important than turning the kid into a trustifarian. I know lots of parents that let their kids run amok in HS but feel they're great parents because junior has a fully-funded shot at an education that he/she is in no way ready for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
People typically become like their parents regardless of the social class. In terms of a fine arts degree, are you under the impress that upper class families are going to allow their sons to major in that? The vast majority would never allow it, unless they displayed an amazing degree of talent in art. Now, they may allow their daughters to major in fine arts because their daughters are expected to marry someone with wealth.
I'm not only under the impression that upper-class families allow their kids to waste their college years on degrees that do not relate to earning a living--I see it every day. I marvel at what parents are spending to send their kids to Colorado College (an expensive private liberal arts college here in Colorado Springs) to major in music, art, theater etc.
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