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Old 08-24-2009, 01:57 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 11,185,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
I started work in July 2 months after I graduated from college in 2004 with a BSBA in Finance, after not being offered a single interview on 432 resumes sent out between October '03 and May '04

...snip...

Last time I checked, the military still has pensions as a given.

...snip...

Its apparent your English degree did zero for your concept of finance.
Two points:

* Your lack of job offers might have something to do with your less-than-stellar GPA.

* Most people will not have a military retirement, and, in private industry, pensions are rapidly going the way of the dinosaur in favor of 401ks, which haven't performed all that well for many people. Boomers, in particular, don't have much time to recover from market losses.

I apologize for being snarky with my response to your concerns. Furthermore, I was less than forthright about my personal financial status: my house was paid off last year, we make an extremely generous family income, we will pay for at least a part of our kids' educations, and we will probably retire in our early 70's without any financial concerns, barring disaster. Regardless, my point about your parents' financial security stands. It is a huge worry for many of my peers that they are not well-prepared for retirement, and college funds can be borrowed. Retirement funds? Not so much. The choice for my fellow mid-lifers is clear, and it may not involve tuition and meal plans, although they'll probably try.

Raising children and living a fiscally responsible life is challenging. A kid shows an amazing talent in soccer (or at least his parents think he does) and pretty soon Mom & Dad are writing thousands of dollars worth of checks for clinics and gear and private coaches and travel in lieu of the 529, not realizing that it may come back to bite them in the future. It's not the plasmas that are the problem: it's the house in the neighborhood with the good schools and all of the baggage that comes with it. Preventing lifestyle creep in the 'burbs is like holding back a tidal wave. It's next to impossible, and parents will nearly always push the limits of their resources to provide the very best for their children. To do less is blasphemy. What is best remains debatable.

You're still pretty young, Random, so I don't expect you to understand fully. As your life progresses, I sincerely hope that you remain true to your parents' good example and your ideals. Best regards...FC

Last edited by formercalifornian; 08-24-2009 at 02:19 PM..
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,423,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Two points:

* Your lack of job offers might have something to do with your less-than-stellar GPA.
My GPA was not displayed on my resume, nor was it requested by a single employer I sent my resume to. I have always avoided employers that judge on GPA, on principal alone. A number of the jobs I applied to back then, actually probably half, didnt even require my degree at all. I applied for dozens of lawn care jobs, fast food jobs, retail, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
* Most people will not have a military retirement,
Most people wont, but a large number of (most) people can. Unless you are medically, mentally or legally unfit for duty, youre pretty much not going to be turned down from the service. Even just a couple years ago, they were starting to take people with criminal records and no high school diplomas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
and, in private industry, pensions are rapidly going the way of the dinosaur in favor of 401ks, which haven't performed all that well for many people. Boomers, in particular, don't have much time to recover from market losses.
Pensions are nice, but they arent really needed by most of the boomers. They should have reduced their expenses to about 30-40% of what they were in their younger years, and there is no reason why about 50% of American households, at least, couldnt put away 10-20k a year for 30-40 years, and come out with enough money to retire at a decent standard of living for 15-20 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
It is a huge worry for many of my peers that they are not well-prepared for retirement, and college funds can be borrowed. Retirement funds? Not so much. The choice for my fellow mid-lifers is clear, and it may not involve tuition and meal plans, although they'll probably try.

Your fellow midlifers have consumed at levels not seen in American history. The savings rate has been practically nothing since this decade began, and less then 7% since 1986. Your parents, the late boomers, and the generations before, had been saving over 10% on average.

Maybe YOU arent decorating the walls with plasmas, but your generation is. THAT is why they have no savings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Raising children and living a fiscally responsible life is challenging. A kid shows an amazing talent in soccer (or at least his parents think he does) and pretty soon Mom & Dad are writing thousands of dollars worth of checks for clinics and gear and private coaches and travel in lieu of the 529, not realizing that it may come back to bite them in the future.
As a parent, you must make choices like that. Put Johnny through soccer now, and sacrifice college later. Some parents make the wrong choice. I was not in a single organized sport until I was 14 years old, dispite being incredibly talented at a number of them. The reason is because they cost money for gear, clinics, travel, blah. When I did play, it was one year, for a rec league ($15 entrance fee). I didnt attend any camps, or have special equipment (I paid for my own first basemans mitt by mowing lawns), but I did win offensive MVP, and lead the team in pretty much all offensive statistical categories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
I see it all the time. It's not the plasmas that are the problem: it's the house in the neighborhood with the good schools and all of the baggage that comes with it. Preventing lifestyle creep in the 'burbs is like holding back a tidal wave. It's next to impossible.
So, its not the plasmas, its the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. We must buy a house we cant afford so Johnny can go to the right school, and we must buy him a tutor, and we must shuttle him in our state of the art SUV (for safety purposes of course), so he isnt subjected to the bus ride.....etc etc.

My parents were broke, and I spent about a quarter of my first 13 years on earth getting in fights with gangs. We lived where my parents could AFFORD, not where they dreamed of living. It did get so bad my parents moved us, but we moved to another lower middle class neighborhood. Could they have moved us to some swank neighborhood, and spent away our college educations, probably so. Thankfully, they didnt.
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:49 PM
 
5,748 posts, read 11,185,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
My GPA was not displayed on my resume, nor was it requested by a single employer I sent my resume to. I have always avoided employers that judge on GPA, on principal alone. A number of the jobs I applied to back then, actually probably half, didnt even require my degree at all. I applied for dozens of lawn care jobs, fast food jobs, retail, etc.
This is just a little off-topic, but I'm trying to wrap my head around what you've written here.

Your parents paid for you to get a degree in finance, which you apparently blew off based on your GPA. You then sent out resumes for low-paying jobs that do not require a degree (on principle? uh-huh.), and you have the nerve to complain that college graduates don't have the means to pay back student loans, and that's why Boomers should buck up and pay for college?

Dude, if you had actually worked hard in college and gotten a job that required that education, you would have been making more than $10/hr. You are exactly the reason why it is important for college kids to have some skin in the game. Otherwise, they end up hanging out on the internet complaining about their lots in life! You owe you parents a huge apology for wasting the money they worked so hard to put aside for your education.

Your credibility is shot. You should have stopped writing a long time ago.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,423,574 times
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[quote=formercalifornian;10430272]This is just a little off-topic, but I'm trying to wrap my head around what you've written here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Your parents paid for you to get a degree in finance, which you apparently blew off based on your GPA.
No, actually, I became extremely ill in my junior year, and it continues to this day. Instead of withdrawing from all the classes or taking incompletes, like most GPA builders would have done, I continued through in order to graduate at age 22, which is 2 years before the average high school grad/entering freshmen receives a bachelors degree.

However, most companies, would not bother asking me why. They would be like you and assume that I simply slacked off. This is the biggest reason I protest them on principal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
You then sent out resumes for low-paying jobs that do not require a degree (on principle? right! it's more likely you were trying to hide it),
No, I just dont believe a company stupid enough to judge a persons abilities on a GPA that can be influenced by so many things is a place I would ever want to work. My employers certainly havent had any complaints thus far. At least, thats what a layman would probably think when observing my letters of recommendation Im carrying from every former employer I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
and you have the nerve to complain that college graduates don't have the means to pay back student loans, and that's why Boomers should buck up and pay for college?
College costs have risen at a far greater rate then inflation, and aid in the form of grants has fallen. Incomes for college grads are not rising to compensate for this, and havent risen, adjusted for inflation, in forever.

As a result, college costs, as a percent of a new grads income, rise every single year. This is not math one would expect an English major to comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Dude, if you had actually worked hard in college and gotten a job that required that education, you would have been making more than $10/hr.
Maybe I should have gotten a degree in English, I probably would have been able to handle that in between doctors appointments and trips to the emergency room. Hell, I probably could have not went to class at all and managed a 3.5 in that, which is what my brother is pretty much doing.

Oh by the way, my girlfriend has a GPA of 3.6 from Florida State (English major, who spent 2 years partying). She still hasn't made 32k.

However, Im sure if given enough time, it could be proven that a chimpanze could probably achieve a 3.0 in an English program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
You are exactly the reason why it is important for college kids to have some skin in the game. Otherwise, they end up hanging out on the internet complaining about their lots in life! You owe you parents a huge apology for wasting the money they worked so hard to put aside for you.
You owe the planet a huge apology for all the air youve sucked up during your time on earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Your credibility is shot. You should have stopped writing a long time ago.
My credibility with who? You? Dont make me laugh. You are of zero value.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,235,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Having to work and/or incur debt to pay for college puts a perspective and worth on school that those who are gifted their educations rarely appreciate.
This is hogwash, most students treat student loans as free cheese and do not think of the ramifications of the loans until they actually have to start paying them back, that is after its too late to do anything about the financial damage they just incurred.

The only difference between being gifted an education or student loans is that the latter is extremely financially damaging.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
In the last 10 years, 5% real returns are not a pat assumption...for college funds or for retirement.
This is not really true, if you invested in a mixed bond fund you could have gotten around 6~7% over the last 10 years. It is only the "buy and hold" saps in the stock market that have gotten soaked over the last 10 years.

Anyhow, you can get 2~3% over inflation just by putting the money into TIPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I have a friend that put his daughter through a couple years at Texas A&M and a cost of over $40K per year...she had what it takes to succeed, but she goofed off and flunked out. I watched a bunch of spoiled classmates playing Dungeons and Dragons, Poker, and Spades night after night in the dorm rather than studying, and most didn't come back after the first year.
So what? Tons of people drop out of college, both kids with funding from their parents and those that get loans. Typically the parents that are forking out the bill for their kids education is going to be looking over their shoulder to make sure they are not messing up. Only a rather stupid parent would continue to pay for college when the kid was screwing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
...I prefer to focus on the ability to have enough, not whether or not I or my children have more than somebody else.
Its not so much about money, but about your position in the world. Will you be a pawn of your employer, or will you be the employer, etc, etc.

When I was a teenager I learned one thing from having to work for my things. 1.) I had no interest in being someone's pawn, 2.) That all the talk about hard work was rubbish, my bosses sat in their offices doing nothing while they paid me around 5~8% of the amount they were getting paid for the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
..it was an exercise in getting the proper pedigree to add to the family name before Mommy and Daddy got them their first job. Some were very bright.
Yes...and?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
There are lots of people in those stores with degrees in music, art, and theater working for peanuts because their academic work left them unprepared for the working world.
No, they are working there because they likely have no talent. A degree program can't turn a turd into gold, that is true of any degree program. The humanities and arts just tend to attract more people without talent in the field than say Science or Engineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Study of the humanities used to be a minor for most people really interested in it, with a major field of study oriented towards gainful employment.
Sorry, but this is not true. Certainly the numbers of people majoring in these things have increased, but the programs were never oriented towards "gainful employment". But why have the numbers increased? Not because more parents are funding their kids education, no rather student loans! Those loans you claim make people have "perspective"...haha.

There is a bubble in education, and that bubble is caused by easily available student loans. The people using these loans gain no perspective nor do they value the education any more than someone with a paid for education. In fact, the person with a paid for education may value it more as they know how hard their parents had to work for the money instead of getting free government cheese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
On what basis do you suggest that "most" jobs in music, art, and theater are well paying? I have to raise the BS flag on that one...most people I know doing that kind of work are not living high on the hog.
By being familiar with the fields. Theater I'm only semi-familiar with, but I'm rather familiar with music and the arts. I never said they are "living high on the hog", rather that the majority of the jobs are well paying.

Someone with true talent is unlikely to not have a problem finding a well paying job after majoring in one of these. Someone is much more likely to succeed if they pursue what they have interest and talent in rather than picking the degree program with the highest median salary. The problem is when people major in these things without a real interest or talent, they do it because they are getting "free money" (i.e, student loans) and it "seems fun". This is where parents need to step up, but many just let the kids do whatever they want...after all its not their money!
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
32,552 posts, read 52,997,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id
... most students treat student loans as free cheese and do not think of the ramifications of the loans until they actually have to start paying them back, that is after its too late to do anything about the financial damage they just incurred.

The only difference between being gifted an education or student loans is that the latter is extremely financially damaging.
I agree.



Quote:
... A degree program can't turn a turd into gold, that is true of any degree program. The humanities and arts just tend to attract more people without talent in the field than say Science or Engineering.
Well stated.



Quote:
... Certainly the numbers of people majoring in these things have increased, but the programs were never oriented towards "gainful employment". But why have the numbers increased? Not because more parents are funding their kids education, no rather student loans!
I agree.



Quote:
... There is a bubble in education, and that bubble is caused by easily available student loans. The people using these loans gain no perspective nor do they value the education any more than someone with a paid for education.
I agree.



Quote:
... Someone with true talent is unlikely to not have a problem finding a well paying job after majoring in one of these. Someone is much more likely to succeed if they pursue what they have interest and talent in rather than picking the degree program with the highest median salary. The problem is when people major in these things without a real interest or talent, they do it because they are getting "free money" (i.e, student loans) and it "seems fun". This is where parents need to step up, but many just let the kids do whatever they want ... after all its not their money!
Yes.

In most fields, when someone has 'true talent' and enjoys doing it, they will get a well paying job regardless of what college they attended.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,423,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is hogwash, most students treat student loans as free cheese and do not think of the ramifications of the loans until they actually have to start paying them back, that is after its too late to do anything about the financial damage they just incurred.

The only difference between being gifted an education or student loans is that the latter is extremely financially damaging.



This is not really true, if you invested in a mixed bond fund you could have gotten around 6~7% over the last 10 years. It is only the "buy and hold" saps in the stock market that have gotten soaked over the last 10 years.

Anyhow, you can get 2~3% over inflation just by putting the money into TIPS.


So what? Tons of people drop out of college, both kids with funding from their parents and those that get loans. Typically the parents that are forking out the bill for their kids education is going to be looking over their shoulder to make sure they are not messing up. Only a rather stupid parent would continue to pay for college when the kid was screwing up.


Its not so much about money, but about your position in the world. Will you be a pawn of your employer, or will you be the employer, etc, etc.

When I was a teenager I learned one thing from having to work for my things. 1.) I had no interest in being someone's pawn, 2.) That all the talk about hard work was rubbish, my bosses sat in their offices doing nothing while they paid me around 5~8% of the amount they were getting paid for the job.



Yes...and?



No, they are working there because they likely have no talent. A degree program can't turn a turd into gold, that is true of any degree program. The humanities and arts just tend to attract more people without talent in the field than say Science or Engineering.


Sorry, but this is not true. Certainly the numbers of people majoring in these things have increased, but the programs were never oriented towards "gainful employment". But why have the numbers increased? Not because more parents are funding their kids education, no rather student loans! Those loans you claim make people have "perspective"...haha.

There is a bubble in education, and that bubble is caused by easily available student loans. The people using these loans gain no perspective nor do they value the education any more than someone with a paid for education. In fact, the person with a paid for education may value it more as they know how hard their parents had to work for the money instead of getting free government cheese.


By being familiar with the fields. Theater I'm only semi-familiar with, but I'm rather familiar with music and the arts. I never said they are "living high on the hog", rather that the majority of the jobs are well paying.

Someone with true talent is unlikely to not have a problem finding a well paying job after majoring in one of these. Someone is much more likely to succeed if they pursue what they have interest and talent in rather than picking the degree program with the highest median salary. The problem is when people major in these things without a real interest or talent, they do it because they are getting "free money" (i.e, student loans) and it "seems fun". This is where parents need to step up, but many just let the kids do whatever they want...after all its not their money!


All very well said User_Id! I would give a rep point, but I have to "spread it around".
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,805 posts, read 17,594,756 times
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Bob from down south wrote:
Having to work and/or incur debt to pay for college puts a perspective and worth on school that those who are gifted their educations rarely appreciate. I know I sure worked a lot harder because I earned the money needed to write the tuition checks.
I am strongly inclined to agree with you Bob. Someone who works for it, is more likely to appreciate the opportunity and also apply themselves more fully.

In the last 10 years, 5% real returns are not a pat assumption...for college funds or for retirement.
Counting your chickens before they hatch is a ticket for a BIG letdown, and a BIG cash shortfall too.

No, I'll never know for sure how they would have turned out if I had just given them an enormous handout. I do know without a doubt that my own success is a direct result of the incredible confidence-building effect of putting myself through school. I see the same signs already in my kids...confidence, appreciation for the value of work and money. They are strong and running on their own power.
I didn't get a handout myself and my handout to my daughter was rather meager. On the other hand, I don't think I'd turn down a big handout if someone wants to give me one. Anybody up for it? If I had more $$$ floating around I'd have probably contributed more to my daughters education. But she did more than OK by working her way thru school, and like you shared in your own experience, she has a confidence in her ability that would not likely be there if the financing was handed to her on a silver platter.

I have a friend that put his daughter through a couple years at Texas A&M and a cost of over $40K per year...she had what it takes to succeed, but she goofed off and flunked out. I watched a bunch of spoiled classmates playing Dungeons and Dragons, Poker, and Spades night after night in the dorm rather than studying, and most didn't come back after the first year.
This happens quite often, but not evryone who receives a hndout blows the opportunity. It depends on the person.

And if Paris Hilton's parents hadn't left her $20 million, she wouldn't be nearly as wealthy now, either. It isn't a race...I prefer to focus on the ability to have enough, not whether or not I or my children have more than somebody else.
AMEN!

Working without a net forges a different kind of person. When you rely on others to provide some/all of your means, it's not the same experience.
True, but having a net ain't all bad. I like having a net in most situations.

I got to know a bunch of them while in graduate school. I went mid-career with a lot of work experience and my employer paying the very expensive tuition. A lot of the rich kids were there right after finishing their undergrad work. A fair number of them were there going through the motions...it was an exercise in getting the proper pedigree to add to the family name before Mommy and Daddy got them their first job. Some were very bright.
Ah, the rich kids. It's so easy to despise them but in all honesty, I wouldn't mind having been one of them.
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,423,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I didn't get a handout myself and my handout to my daughter was rather meager. On the other hand, I don't think I'd turn down a big handout if someone wants to give me one. Anybody up for it? If I had more $$$ floating around I'd have probably contributed more to my daughters education. But she did more than OK by working her way thru school, and like you shared in your own experience, she has a confidence in her ability that would not likely be there if the financing was handed to her on a silver platter.

I would not have went to college if my parents didnt pay for it. The debt load for a piece of paper that has no guarantee of ever paying off is an unacceptable trade off in my opinion. I likely would have covered up my severe migraine headaches and joined the Navy and had Uncle Sam assume my college education risk through the GI Bill.

Under absolutely no circumstance would I ever assume a penny of college debt myself.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:47 PM
 
15,898 posts, read 28,247,168 times
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I'd like to know what these "most are well paying jobs" in the arts are. (Note, I am no artist, but merely a patron). There are lots and lots of people with talent in various artistic endeavors, and lots of those people plow through college in these fields. I have not noticed all these jobs that pay so well for those talented people, although, I do make sure to leave good tips for everyone.
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