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Old 08-26-2009, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I'd like to know what these "most are well paying jobs" in the arts are....... I have not noticed all these jobs that pay so well for those talented people, although, I do make sure to leave good tips for everyone.
I get the feeling you're talking about artists that are trying to make it in the "art world", that is get their work in museums etc. That is much like trying to make it as an actor.

The variance here is rather large, because you usually "make it" or you don't. So most of these people end up broke, some rather wealthy. I can understand pursuing this sort of thing, if you have a back up plan. But there are a lot of jobs in the applied arts that are not so glamorous, but have decent and stable pay checks.
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I get the feeling you're talking about artists that are trying to make it in the "art world", that is get their work in museums etc. That is much like trying to make it as an actor.

The variance here is rather large, because you usually "make it" or you don't. So most of these people end up broke, some rather wealthy. I can understand pursuing this sort of thing, if you have a back up plan. But there are a lot of jobs in the applied arts that are not so glamorous, but have decent and stable pay checks.

For instance, animators can easily make over 70k a year, and some over 100k depending on the studio.

There are many graphic artists and web designers, video game artists, music composers for TV shows, movies, video games. There are studio and commissioned painters, there are MANY metropolitan symphonies around the country, where top chairs pay well over 100k a year. There are people who restore old art and buildings. There are artists who work in corporate marketing departments coming up with logos and ad campaigns. There are literally thousands of private dance, music and art studios, where many proprietors make a nice penny teaching others their skills.

I can think of a number of far less employable degree fields......English....History....Humanities such as Womens Studies/Greek Philosophy/Communications, etc.......
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Old 08-26-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
I can think of a number of far less employable degree fields......English....History....Humanities such as Womens Studies/Greek Philosophy/Communications, etc.......
Yeah, the arts have a bad reputation in this regard, worse than some other programs that are almost useless from an employment point of view.

Its sorta odd though considering people see/hear the products on these artists/musicians on a daily basis.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:11 PM
 
14,256 posts, read 16,237,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Yeah, the arts have a bad reputation in this regard, worse than some other programs that are almost useless from an employment point of view.

Its sorta odd though considering people see/hear the products on these artists/musicians on a daily basis.
I guess it depends if one sees the arts education as a means to an end or as an end in itself.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:56 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is hogwash, most students treat student loans as free cheese and do not think of the ramifications of the loans until they actually have to start paying them back, that is after its too late to do anything about the financial damage they just incurred.

The only difference between being gifted an education or student loans is that the latter is extremely financially damaging.
You must be hanging around a different class of students than the cohort I am familiar with...mostly hard science and engineering students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is not really true, if you invested in a mixed bond fund you could have gotten around 6~7% over the last 10 years. It is only the "buy and hold" saps in the stock market that have gotten soaked over the last 10 years.

Anyhow, you can get 2~3% over inflation just by putting the money into TIPS.
And when the inevitable bond market dislocation hits, that'll look as foolish as buy-n-hold in stocks. And TIPS only guarantees 2-3% above inflation if you hold to maturity...if they're sold at market short of maturity you can still lose--massively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
So what? Tons of people drop out of college, both kids with funding from their parents and those that get loans. Typically the parents that are forking out the bill for their kids education is going to be looking over their shoulder to make sure they are not messing up. Only a rather stupid parent would continue to pay for college when the kid was screwing up.
"So what" is that your previous premise that paying for a "kid's" (an adult offspring's) college education isn't necessarily the great investment you make it out to be. Dropping out is the equivalent of default risk on that "investment," and there's a whole lotta defaultin' goin' on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its not so much about money, but about your position in the world. Will you be a pawn of your employer, or will you be the employer, etc, etc.
I don't buy the conclusion that a college degree buys independence. There are many, many sucessful small business owners and enterpreneurs without college degrees. And there are many, many people with high-powered educations (and six-figure salaries) that are what you refer to as "pawns" in the corporate food chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
When I was a teenager I learned one thing from having to work for my things. 1.) I had no interest in being someone's pawn, 2.) That all the talk about hard work was rubbish, my bosses sat in their offices doing nothing while they paid me around 5~8% of the amount they were getting paid for the job.
I learned that lesson in the varied jobs I held while working my own way through college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Sorry, but this is not true. Certainly the numbers of people majoring in these things have increased, but the programs were never oriented towards "gainful employment". But why have the numbers increased? Not because more parents are funding their kids education, no rather student loans! Those loans you claim make people have "perspective"...haha.

There is a bubble in education, and that bubble is caused by easily available student loans. The people using these loans gain no perspective nor do they value the education any more than someone with a paid for education. In fact, the person with a paid for education may value it more as they know how hard their parents had to work for the money instead of getting free government cheese.
Again, the kids I know sweat their student loans by the dollar. As I did. And most of the trustifarians I knew I knew in college weren't thinking of their parents' sacrifices while they partied their way through the semesters.

I agree that cheap student loan money has caused a bubble, but colleges bear the blame at least as much by not ruthlessly culling out the unsuitables early in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Someone with true talent is unlikely to not have a problem finding a well paying job after majoring in one of these.
We agree here. Someone, even with talent is indeed unlikely to NOT have a problem (i.e. likely to have a problem) finding a job in music, art, theater etc. We have a high-priced liberal arts college in town not too far from my house, but my neighbors are in medicine, engineering, a few senior military officers, etc. Not a music major in the bunch. Same for pretty much all the places I've lived for 30 years. Had a couple spouses with music and art degrees, but they weren't the breadwinners.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:25 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
You must be hanging around a different class of students than the cohort I am familiar with...mostly hard science and engineering students.
No, I know people that have majored in all sorts of things. Its simply human psychology, the loans are like free money and most people do not consider the financial ramifications of the loans. That is as true for Science and Engineering students as it is for others.

You are trying to imply that getting a bunch of government subsidized loans gives you "perspective", can the same be said of running up credit card debt? Sorry, building debt does not give one perspective, rather paying off the debt does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
And when the inevitable bond market dislocation hits, that'll look as foolish as buy-n-hold in stocks.
Bond market dislocation? Huh? It should go without saying that bonds and stocks don't work the same, buying and holding a bond until maturity is not the same as buying a stock long term....there is no "maturity". If you hold the bond until maturity the only risk are 1.) Inflation risk, 2.) default risk. With TIPS there is no 1.) and 2.) is extremely low. If the federal government defaulted on its debt, the stock market would collapse too.

So, no its not nearly as foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
"So what" is that your previous premise that paying for a "kid's" (an adult offspring's) college education isn't necessarily the great investment you make it out to be. Dropping out is the equivalent of default risk on that "investment," and there's a whole lotta defaultin' goin' on.
Firstly parents should not pay for their kid's college unless they are very motivated. Secondly, you are equating the worth of education with a piece of paper. When someone drops out of college, they don't lose all the things they've learned up to that point. So, no its not equivalent to "default risk" at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I don't buy the conclusion that a college degree buys independence. There are many, many sucessful small business owners and enterpreneurs without college degrees. And there are many, many people with high-powered educations (and six-figure salaries) that are what you refer to as "pawns" in the corporate food chain.
I never said a college degree buys independence, I said you'll be a pawn or not. This whole "makes them stronger" bit, is really just "makes them pawns". We don't live in a meritocracy, there are really only two ways for a lower/middle class kid to remove himself from serfdom 1.) Get lucky, 2.) get educated and start a business/self-employment of some sort.

I wonder what the Goldman boys will be getting for bonuses this year?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I learned that lesson in the varied jobs I held while working my own way through college.
You learned that the talk about hard work was rubbish? Why are you repeating it then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Again, the kids I know sweat their student loans by the dollar. As I did.
Okay? I don't know the kids you know, what I do know is that student loan debt as sky rocketed and so has student credit card debt. Students are talking out as much debt as they can, that does not sound like they are "sweating it" to much. At least generally speaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I agree that cheap student loan money has caused a bubble...
Make up your mind, do the students weigh carefully their use of student loan debt or do they take the free cheese? If the students were thoughtful of the debt then you would not see a bubble. But you do, because the students have an unlimited appetite for free cheese.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
but my neighbors are in medicine, engineering, a few senior military officers, etc. Not a music major in the bunch. Same for pretty much all the places I've lived for 30 years. Had a couple spouses with music and art degrees, but they weren't the breadwinners.
I'm not sure what you are trying to conclude from this, but I suggest you consider that the artists, musicians, etc have little desire to live in your neighborhood.

How about this, you move to West LA and repeat this exercise.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Bond market dislocation? Huh? It should go without saying that bonds and stocks don't work the same, buying and holding a bond until maturity is not the same as buying a stock long term....there is no "maturity". If you hold the bond until maturity the only risk are 1.) Inflation risk, 2.) default risk. With TIPS there is no 1.) and 2.) is extremely low. If the federal government defaulted on its debt, the stock market would collapse too.

So, no its not nearly as foolish.
Again, as long as you hold the bond to maturity, the risks are low. But if you have to sell the bond in the open market short of maturity you introduce 3) a significant market pricing risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Firstly parents should not pay for their kid's college unless they are very motivated. Secondly, you are equating the worth of education with a piece of paper. When someone drops out of college, they don't lose all the things they've learned up to that point. So, no its not equivalent to "default risk" at all.
I maintain that parents should not, as a matter of course, feel obligated to pay for an adult offspring's advanced education. I find it humorous that the same people that refer to a pension that was earned through decades of work as an "entitlement," but still feel that they are owed a college education, down payment on a home, a place to live until they're 35 etc that they did nothing to earn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I never said a college degree buys independence, I said you'll be a pawn or not. This whole "makes them stronger" bit, is really just "makes them pawns". We don't live in a meritocracy, there are really only two ways for a lower/middle class kid to remove himself from serfdom 1.) Get lucky, 2.) get educated and start a business/self-employment of some sort.
No, sorry, no sale. Working one's own way up in the world does not make one a "pawn." And as I pointed out before, many others have started successful businesses without education.

I think one of the significant problems with our society today is that the guys at the top were indeed given their station in life without ever grasping an understanding of what peoples' lives at the worker bee level are like. I think generally, that the lawyer who waited tables earning his way through school is far better connected to the world than a trustifarian who went to school with a free mommy-daddy scholarship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
You learned that the talk about hard work was rubbish? Why are you repeating it then?
No, I learned that the guys in the offices talking about hard work had something I wanted. It wasn't like they didn't work to get where they were, or that they weren't doing anything for their pay, but their circumstances were a hell of a lot more desireable than tarring a roof in the summer heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Okay? I don't know the kids you know, what I do know is that student loan debt as sky rocketed and so has student credit card debt. Students are talking out as much debt as they can, that does not sound like they are "sweating it" to much. At least generally speaking.

Make up your mind, do the students weigh carefully their use of student loan debt or do they take the free cheese? If the students were thoughtful of the debt then you would not see a bubble. But you do, because the students have an unlimited appetite for free cheese.
It's not an either-or proposition. There are many working towards a productive skill, and for them student debt in moderate amounts is an investment. Thare are many more taking on easily-obtained debt to party and get degrees that will never justify the debt they incurred.

The cheese, as you characterize it, is anything but free. It can't be discharged in bankruptcy, so it should not be strapped on with abandon. Those that do will painfully discover it's anything but free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm not sure what you are trying to conclude from this, but I suggest you consider that the artists, musicians, etc have little desire to live in your neighborhood.

How about this, you move to West LA and repeat this exercise.
No, there's a community near me where the local artisan population is concentrated. The median income and economic distress indicators there don't suggest presence of a large proportion of "well-paid" artisans. Let's just say I wouldn't trade where I live for where they live.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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I just saw one of the all-time best jazz vocalists there is- a woman named Tierney Sutton and her band. She's got eight CDs out. She is magically talented. She chatted with the audience and said that, last year, she sang in her ethereal voice, "Greeeen Giant" on the commercial, but hey, "It got my family health insurance."
Due to the many local colleges (especially Berklee School of Jazz) I guess I see a LOT of people with talents and interests in the arts, the teachers competing for the same students, the graphic designers/Web designers a dime a dozen, tremendous competition for any job remotely related to the arts, not just artisans and performers.
The PBS station here has always been drowning in resumes, literally every day, regardless of the economy. There are job people want, and there are far more talented/skilled people than there are jobs. I think it is misleading to suggest that there are plenty of high-paying jobs in these areas.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,214,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Again, as long as you hold the bond to maturity, the risks are low. But if you have to sell the bond in the open market short of maturity you introduce 3) a significant market pricing risk.
Again what? You said something wrong, someone that "buy-n-holds" bonds is not exposed to the same issues as someone that does the same with stocks. They are not equally foolish in this regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I find it humorous that the same people that refer to a pension that was earned through decades of work as an "entitlement," but still feel that they are owed a college education, down payment on a home, a place to live until they're 35 etc that they did nothing to earn.
Pensions are entitlements, so is social security. Also, most pensions have shortfalls precisely because people have not paid enough into them. They made a bunch of ridiculous projects on imagined 10% returns decades into the future.

And to say it again, I've said nothing about being "owed" a college education, down payment, etc. Rather I've said these things can make good sense from the parent's and child's perspective granted that the parents have the means in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
No, sorry, no sale. Working one's own way up in the world does not make one a "pawn." And as I pointed out before, many others have started successful businesses without education.
Kids from poor/middle-class families rarely remove themselves from serfdom. For everyone that does, there are many thousands that do not. Financial support from the parents is one way to better your kids chances.

As you pointed out what? I never suggested all successful business owners are educated. That is irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I think generally, that the lawyer who waited tables earning his way through school is far better connected to the world than a trustifarian who went to school with a free mommy-daddy scholarship.
And the world simply does not care. The kid with a paid for education will had more time to study and make connections while in school, in the meantime the kid waiting tables will be busying being a peasant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
It wasn't like they didn't work to get where they were, or that they weren't doing anything for their pay,
Again the belief in a meritocracy. We don't live in a meritocracy, the people in power are generally not in power because they earned it, deserve it or are worth their pay. Most people on top are slugs that suck wealth from the little serfs below them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
....
The cheese, as you characterize it, is anything but free. It can't be discharged in bankruptcy, so it should not be strapped on with abandon. Those that do will painfully discover it's anything but free.
I'm talking about how students think about the debt. You are suggesting that building debt to pay for school some hold builds character, but that is silly. The student does not have to service the debt at all while in school, from their point of view its just free cheese. It is only after school, that they start to learn what it means to take on debt and pay of such debt. But then its too late... To say it again, building debt does not give you perspective, rather paying it off does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
No, there's a community near me where the local artisan population is concentrated. The median income and economic distress indicators there don't suggest presence of a large proportion of "well-paid" artisans. Let's just say I wouldn't trade where I live for where they live.
Gee, I don't remember talking about "local artisans", rather educated artists and musicians. Anybody can paint some crap and call themselves an "artisan".

Speaking of perspective, please get some. Every billboard you see is designed by an artist, every movie produced involves designers, artists, musicians, film makers, photographers, etc. Every TV show made involves artists, designers, musicians, film makers, etc. Every magazine involves numerous artists, photographers, etc. Every professional website involves designers, etc. The vast majority of products produced involve designers. The vast majority of buildings and homes built involves designers, artists, etc. The majority of books published involves designers, artists, etc. The majority of software created involves designers. And...the list goes on. You see, very little is created without someone from the arts being involved! These are all good paying jobs.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I think it is misleading to suggest that there are plenty of high-paying jobs in these areas.
Its not misleading at all, there are numerous jobs in the arts, music, etc. But people ignore this and instead focus on the people that are trying to make it as individual artists, musicians etc.

Google gets far more applicants than they can hire, does that mean nobody should study computer science, electrical engineering, etc? The most attractive jobs always get a lot of applicants.
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