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Old 02-27-2010, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,395,200 times
Reputation: 2547

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanman72 View Post
To the OP and some of the people who responded in this thread.: Also, don't get it stuck in your head that engineering is a quick path to riches and a stable line of work. Far from it, unless you're already established in the industry. If you do decide to go that route, make sure you go to a school with a strong recruitment program. Otherwise the market for entry and junior level engineers is dead. This isn't 2007 when we were all pulling in nice 50-60k salaries.


-A laid off Chemical Engineer who isn't alone in his situation.
My sister graduated in January, and will be starting at $55,500 a year, age 22. No internships, no nothing. As for no engineering jobs, the Department of the Navy alone has dozens of them, many going to recent college grads. A recent USA jobs search turned up 2,519 jobs with Engineer in the title, most paying 50k plus.

How many did it turn up with accountant in the title? 132. I did a search on Finance, and it returned about 1200, but hundreds of the jobs had absolutely nothing to do with finance.

Indeed.com turned up nearly half a million hits for engineer paying over 40k (well over half of them pay over 60k, and about 20k for Chemical Engineer, all of which pay over 40k a year, and over half of them over 60k a year. If you were smart, and became an Electrical Engineer, youd find about 80k jobs paying over 40k available to you, with well over half of them over 60k

Accountant? About 65k jobs nationally paying more then 40k, with well over half of them paying under 60k. What is worse is that most every job over 40k requires a masters degree worth of credits, and a CPA, which costs thousands of dollars a year to keep active.

So, how many graduates fall out of each field to flood the market each year?

Well, Business is consistantly the most popular degree on almost every campus in the country. Granted, most of them are "Business Management" or "Marketing" but many of them end up competing for entry level accounting jobs when they figure out there is nothing for them elsewhere. That said, accountant graduates have been double digit jumping, because the misinformation about it being a good field keeps getting perpetuated.

Engineering? Well, every single Engineering field combined doesnt even make the top ten. My sisters graduating school was the smallest by far at the commencement.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:44 AM
 
21 posts, read 64,976 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
I took the johnson occonnor battery of aptitude tests about twenty years ago. Very helpful.
I've decided to take the tests! (I'll temp harder!) I can't wait for the results.

Thank you very much!
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Old 02-27-2010, 05:29 PM
 
1,640 posts, read 4,371,629 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
My 22 year old engineer sister gave me one of the best pieces of advice. If the profession is a majority females, or the classes you take are filled with a majority females, do not pursue that.

It is very true. Male dominated industries, primarily science and math, are the highest paying and most respected one this earth.

If you want some evidence, I came across a recent Norfolk, VA area employment advertisement for a "CPA in a fast paced enviroment, 39k". What did my sister get offered in the civil engineering field, first job out of college? 55k.

Accounting and Finance is a joke. If you arent an Ivy League "rock star" and are heading for some investment bank on Wall Street to make you million dollar bonuses, you are going to end up working as some cubicle jockey for 30-40K in most every place in this country until you can get a coveted job with the IRS, or gain the 10-15 years of experience neccessary to be considered for a Controller or CFO job.

If you were considering ever pursuing a degree in any type of business field, Id say stop right now and seriously reconsider unless you have some kind of inside track into the acturarial sciences (or you have your card punched for Wall Street). Behind Liberal Arts, Business is probably the next biggest joke of a degree there is.

Some true words from a Finance graduate who has spent 6 years making less then 38k in accounting, currently moving to IT and considering going back to school for engineering.
It sounds like you've failed in your chosen field and now you're trying to justify your failure by saying it's not you, it's the profession.

Yes, the CPA isn't for everyone but it can be a great certification if it fits your interests. You definitely don't need to be from ivy stock to be a CPA, in fact, many ivys don't have an accounting degree. Public Accounting sucks, but it's just for a couple years to pay your dues and build your resume, after that you have many opportunities outside of working in a cube for $40k. I'm not sure where you live, but I don't know a single CPA who's making that little.

You think IT is a good move? Good luck with that.

*I'm a CPA and can tell you that I've never coveted a job with the IRS. Also, any decent employer will pay for you to take the exam and keep your CPE current.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:28 AM
Rei
 
Location: Los Angeles
494 posts, read 1,671,138 times
Reputation: 233
Quote:
My 22 year old engineer sister gave me one of the best pieces of advice. If the profession is a majority females, or the classes you take are filled with a majority females, do not pursue that.

It is very true. Male dominated industries, primarily science and math, are the highest paying and most respected one this earth.
My younger sister and I are both CivEs specializing in water resources. We both went to cal poly, interned in the same transportation field (different company - she was in construction, I was in design).
From our combined experience, the reason why girls are more wanted in civil engineering are:
1. It's 90% male and guys like to have females in the office. NO offense and not being sexist. Just being honest.
2. Government contracts require that contractors have minority working in the company -> girls.

Quote:
My sister says the only one to stay away from is Environmental Engineering, and ironically, this is the field most women engineers go towards.
Huh? What is she talking about?
Why again? EnvE is not the field most women go into. Most women go into ChemE.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,395,200 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
It sounds like you've failed in your chosen field and now you're trying to justify your failure by saying it's not you, it's the profession.
It is the profession. Why dont you check out a few CPA boards. CPAs generally make in the mid 50's. That is an outright joke. Maybe you should stop defending your ass biting profession, and take a look at things objectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
Yes, the CPA isn't for everyone but it can be a great certification if it fits your interests.
CPA is quite possibly the most worthless, least cost effective certification known to man. Not only does it now require basically a masters degree to even sit for it (in all but 4 states now), but it also posseses one of the most rigorous CPE requirements as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
You definitely don't need to be from ivy stock to be a CPA, in fact, many ivys don't have an accounting degree.
Who claimed this? You have to be of Ivy League stock to make money in the business field (assuming you dont own your own business). A large majority of accountants are making 50k or less, including the CPAs.

Average CPA Salary, CPAs Salaries and Annual Salary Guide

I would say that this is probably close. A CPA with senior level experience, who is NOT a manager of some sort can look forward to capping out around 75k at a Big 4 (which largely recruits the best students from top universities). Most CPAs are going to filter in to corporate accounting for a small or medium company, and can look forward to a great salary around 45-50k after 6 years of work, and making that will probably require a person to live in NYC or other high cost of living city (that is primarily where Ive seen most staff level jobs paying more then 50k).

If you take in to account that I live in a place with no corporate jobs, little demand for accountants, and I dont have a CPA, Ive actually been extremely successful. My salary is approaching the lower end of the average senior level CPA. Unfortunatley, that isnt good enough for me. I dont aspire to make 50k after 20 years on the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
Public Accounting sucks, but it's just for a couple years to pay your dues and build your resume, after that you have many opportunities outside of working in a cube for $40k. I'm not sure where you live, but I don't know a single CPA who's making that little.
You obviously dont know many CPAs or you only know a few in a very narrow demographic. Most senior level CPAs are making more then 40k, but not much more. CPAs below senior level frequently make less then 40k. Thats EXACTLY what a person should expect after completing a Masters Degree.....40k. Let me just jump right on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
You think IT is a good move? Good luck with that.
Cisco certification is more valuable then a CPA.

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/ed...ghestCerts.htm

Three seperate CISCO certifications come with average salaries over 80k.

An Indeed search turns up about 6,000 Cisco Certified jobs, every one of them paying over 50k. Then again thats not so bad considering there are less then 20k people in the world with many of the Cisco certifications.

So, what exactly do you need to sit for the Cisco tests? Absolutely nothing (except passing a prerequisite test). Unlike the CPA which requires a masters degree in almost every state, and work experience and/or a current CPA to vouch for you in many others


Quote:
Originally Posted by truckingbronco View Post
*I'm a CPA and can tell you that I've never coveted a job with the IRS. Also, any decent employer will pay for you to take the exam and keep your CPE current.
If idiots like you keep getting CPA's, eventually there will be so many of you that nobody is going to pay for you to take any exams or keep up the CPE. Congrats on that. Id rather get a certifcation that millions of people cant get, and doesnt require me to have a masters degree to sit for it.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,395,200 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei View Post


Huh? What is she talking about?
Why again? EnvE is not the field most women go into. Most women go into ChemE.
I imagine shes talking about her experience in her classes......Im sure its different school to school.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:21 PM
 
Location: On the golf course
257 posts, read 558,447 times
Reputation: 402
[quote=Randomdude;13110765]It is the profession. Why dont you check out a few CPA boards. CPAs generally make in the mid 50's. That is an outright joke. Maybe you should stop defending your ass biting profession, and take a look at things objectively.[quote]


My wife graduated with a Masters in Accounting, earned her CPA, and worked for a Big 4 firm for two years. She made over 50k starting out at the Big 4, without a CPA. After leaving the Big 4, she made over 60k. Three and a half years out of college, she is making well over 70k, without a senior title. This is in Dallas, Texas. I honestly don't know of one accountant making less than 40k a year. If they do, they probably should find another profession as they obviously aren't very good at what they do.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,395,200 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakehighlands View Post
My wife graduated with a Masters in Accounting, earned her CPA, and worked for a Big 4 firm for two years. She made over 50k starting out at the Big 4, without a CPA.
Because obviously the Big 4 is where most accountants start, or ever touch........the Big 4 hires 10k or so grads a year

According to this

Accounting degrees at 36-year high

64,000 alone graduated in 2006-07, and 203,000 people newly entered accounting programs in 2008.

So, even in a good year, only about 1/6 of college grads can hope to be hired by the Big 4, most of those come out of top accounting colleges. The rest get swallowed by low end public accounting or become corporate cube jockies.

In fact, locally, they are finding the market so flooded by worthless accounting grads that they can require a bachelors degree for AP jobs paying sub $13 an hour and get a line around the building for them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lakehighlands View Post
After leaving the Big 4, she made over 60k. Three and a half years out of college, she is making well over 70k, without a senior title. This is in Dallas, Texas.
First thing, she is an exception to the rule. If you want evidence of this, here is an indeed.com search for staff accountant first in the whole country

Staff Accountant Jobs | Indeed.com

Where you can clearly see that there are more offers below 60k then above

and here is one for NYC

Staff Accountant Jobs in New York | Indeed.com

Go ahead, puruse them, I want you to find me one that pays 70k for 3 years exp or less. Oh wait, here is a Robert Half search for their accounting jobs too

Robert Half Finance - Search Jobs

You will notice that there are MANY staff accountant jobs at under 40k a year. Whats even more, if you actually click on many of them paying over 40k, you will be surprised to find that a large number require numerous years of experience or a CPA/CPA Candidate (which means youve got the Masters Degree under your belt). Additionally, a great deal of the ones paying over 50k are in the Northeast or Washington DC area, which is exactly what my research already found.

According to you, all of these positions will clearly be filled by someone who doesnt know what they are doing, rather then someone who is trying to feed their family.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lakehighlands View Post
I honestly don't know of one accountant making less than 40k a year. If they do, they probably should find another profession as they obviously aren't very good at what they do.
Yeah, because pay equals ability. Pay has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand, geographic area, nepotism, or desperation of the job candidate. Get real dude. Move on.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:53 PM
 
Location: On the golf course
257 posts, read 558,447 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Yeah, because pay equals ability. Pay has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand, geographic area, nepotism, or desperation of the job candidate. Get real dude. Move on.

Haha.
Pay has nothing to do with geographic area? Really? You majored in Finance? Cost of Living adjustments? You think someone in New York City doing the same exact job as someone in Dallas is paid the same as someone in Dallas?

Sounds like you need to move on...to a new profession. I may have some recruiters who could help. Are you in Norfolk?
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,395,200 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakehighlands View Post
Haha.
Pay has nothing to do with geographic area? Really? You majored in Finance? Cost of Living adjustments? You think someone in New York City doing the same exact job as someone in Dallas is paid the same as someone in Dallas?
You obviously missed the sarcasm of that statement. It was YOU who was trying to equivalate pay with ability, when pay has little to do with ability, EVER (the only exception to that is commissioned sales, where clearly the guy making more commission is better at what he is doing, given everything else equal). There are hundreds of CEOs making millions of dollars a year running century old corporations in to the ground as we speak. Some how they got that job, and that salary, even though obviously they clearly lacked ability.

You explain that to me, and I will agree with you that we all get what we are "worth". We all get whatever we can wrench out of an employer. The less demand there is for what you do, the less you can wrench. Bottom line is, accounting is flooded, and getting more flooded by the day. Even though I am making top dollar for what I do (I challenge you to find an accountant job requiring 4 years or less exp, and no CPA that is making more then 38k in Norfolk, VA), it is still a joke when compared to many other professions. The fact that I would need a Masters Degree and an expensive certification to make less then my new grad sister with a bachelors degree, is completely unacceptable. I have no special attachment to accounting, its just a job to me, and Im certainly intellegent enough to do something else more difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakehighlands View Post
Sounds like you need to move on...to a new profession. I may have some recruiters who could help. Are you in Norfolk?
Im already moving on to a new profession (IT), unfortunatley, thats going to take time. Im hoping to move out of Norfolk in the meantime to a place that will at least pay me better for what Im stuck doing for right now.
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