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OK, I think some of what I said is being bent out of context. First, there ARE a lot of good kids out there who work and study hard--and who will make good citizens. I'm thankful for that because they are the ones who are going to inherit this world. I suspect that a disproportionate number of the people who post on this forum are also in that group because they care enough to research, form opinions, ask questions, and express themselves here.
Yes, there were some real "losers" in my generation, too. I had the misfortune of going to school with a bunch of them--and many of them were the same spoiled-brat-types that I see today wandering aimlessly around the malls trying to figure out how they can spend some more of their parents' money. Get this right--I don't necessarily blame those kids for being the way they are. Parenting--or, more correctly, the lack thereof--has a lot to do with it.
Things do have a tendency to correct themselves, and this will, too. Getting back on topic, the economic noose around America's neck of diminishing resources and increased competition is going to cause some Darwinian "weeding out" in colleges, workplaces--and maybe even families--of people who lack the motivation or abilities to be productive citizens. Some of those less-than-stellar folks are going to get a very harsh surprise in the workings of a world that is going to become much less forgiving of their shortcomings.
I will leave this with one comment to Vegaspilgrim and others who think I'm stepping out of my area of expertise here: I have been in the workforce for over 4 decades now, and I've spent about 2/3 of that in supervisory, leadership, and executive positions--employing and managing people--in both the private and public sectors, as well as being an officer in a couple of non-profits along the way. I may not be an expert on parenting (I don't have kids) and I don't purport to be; but I think I can judge pretty well which individuals are going to make productive employees and citizens who will contribute positively to society. Lord knows, I've had to make that judgment enough times when I've been hiring people. I've done well enough at it that a few of the people I've mentored have gone on to be quite successful leaders in their own right.
Short of living at home with the parents and working full time, and going to the cheapest school available (and spending the first two years at a community college instead of all four years at University), there is no way you can possibly "work your way" through college ending up with no debt unless if you get significant scholarships.
Tell that to the thousands of veterans paying for college with the Montgomery G.I. Bill, or receiving 90% tuition assistance while taking classes on active duty in the military. Colorado Springs alone has hundreds if not thousands of them.
College immediately after H.S. isn't the only way to skin the cat. In many, many cases, it isn't even the best way to skin the cat. One of my sons went off to college right after high school...under his own power and on his own dime...and discovered that he really wasn't ready. He's much better armed for success in the classroom today...and he's funding it by working and saving before he goes back.
Nobody in this thread attempted to generalize that all college students are deadbeats with an entitlement complex. But that deadbeat student is not a work of fiction, nor is he/she going to appear on the endangered species list. By and large, American society has internalized an obligation on the part of parents to resource their children's advanced education. Saving for college for kids is held out as a standard parental obligation by most financial planners. I disagree, and would suggest that giving an adult child a free advanced education can do them a colossal disservice. I watched another son work his a** off in high school and win a full-ride scholarship to a solid state university. I contrast that with his classmates who are drifting lazily through high school comfortably but only slightly above the minimums, knowing that college is already paid for by Mom and Pop. I'm confident that by placing responsibility for college on my children, they grasped the important connections between effort, results, and rewards. Some of the kids who get parental educational welfare will succeed...but many will not, and may well spend their lives with their hands out expecting to get "theirs."
I do believe that college costs are a symptom of the same easy credit bubble that drove housing to insane heights. And just as the excesses of the housing bubble were not spread uniformly, neither are those in the education bubble. A college costing upwards of $50K per year may well prove to be the educational analog to California real estate...priced to absurd and unaffordable levels with the flow of easy money shut off. It'll be interesting to see enrollment in some of the expensive but less notable private universites this fall.
Last edited by Bob from down south; 04-18-2008 at 12:57 PM..
College immediately after H.S. isn't the only way to skin the cat. In many, many cases, it isn't even the best way to skin the cat. One of my sons went off to college right after high school...under his own power and on his own dime...and discovered that he really wasn't ready. He's much better armed for success in the classroom today...and he's funding it by working and saving before he goes back.
Nobody in this thread attempted to generalize that all college students are deadbeats with an entitlement complex. But that deadbeat student is not a work of fiction, nor is he/she going to appear on the endangered species list. By and large, American society has internalized an obligation on the part of parents to resource their children's advanced education. Saving for college for kids is held out as a standard parental obligation by most financial planners. I disagree, and would suggest that giving an adult child a free advanced education can do them a colossal disservice. I watched another son work his a** off in high school and win a full-ride scholarship to a solid state university. I contrast that with his classmates who are drifting lazily through high school comfortably but only slightly above the minimums, knowing that college is already paid for by Mom and Pop. I'm confident that by placing responsibility for college on my children, they grasped the important connections between effort, results, and rewards. Some of the kids who get parental educational welfare will succeed...but many will not, and may well spend their lives with their hands out expecting to get "theirs."
Not often do I wholeheartedly agree with you, but this is one of those times when I do, especially the parts of your post that I made bold. I would even be in favor of making it mandatory that a HS graduate spend the first year out of HS, working a job in the real world. Having a taste of the real world would incline most students to take a college education more seriously. I also agree that expecting parents to foot the bill for a college education often does a collossal disservice to the student. It's another one of those expectations that leads to the entitlement mentality so prevalent in the USA that contributed to the mess we've been discussing for 56 pages in this thread.
Tell that to the thousands of veterans paying for college with the Montgomery G.I. Bill, or receiving 90% tuition assistance while taking classes on active duty in the military. Colorado Springs alone has hundreds if not thousands of them.
And that military tuition aid would be an example of a scholarship. That's exactly what I said.
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College immediately after H.S. isn't the only way to skin the cat. In many, many cases, it isn't even the best way to skin the cat. One of my sons went off to college right after high school...under his own power and on his own dime...and discovered that he really wasn't ready. He's much better armed for success in the classroom today...and he's funding it by working and saving before he goes back.
I agree-- many people going straight from high school to college just plain don't belong there. Unfortunately, today the bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. It's an education arms race these days.
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Nobody in this thread attempted to generalize that all college students are deadbeats with an entitlement complex. But that deadbeat student is not a work of fiction, nor is he/she going to appear on the endangered species list. By and large, American society has internalized an obligation on the part of parents to resource their children's advanced education. Saving for college for kids is held out as a standard parental obligation by most financial planners. I disagree, and would suggest that giving an adult child a free advanced education can do them a colossal disservice. I watched another son work his a** off in high school and win a full-ride scholarship to a solid state university. I contrast that with his classmates who are drifting lazily through high school comfortably but only slightly above the minimums, knowing that college is already paid for by Mom and Pop. I'm confident that by placing responsibility for college on my children, they grasped the important connections between effort, results, and rewards. Some of the kids who get parental educational welfare will succeed...but many will not, and may well spend their lives with their hands out expecting to get "theirs."
A couple of points here-- working too much while trying to go to school can have a detrimental effect on education. Like I said before, a lot of the people I know spend more time working at their "jobs" (things like waitressing, bellboy, front desk of hotel, working at Sears, babysitting, working at Subway, to name a few) than at school; it can practically be impossible to get people to commit meeting to work on group projects in my business classes because everybody seems like they're working at all times. Students who do support themselves 100% (and I do know a few of them) often are unable to afford taking classes full time, so they end up taking 5,6, even longer, years to graduate, and a lot of them give up and drop out. Typically these students just do the bare minimum to get by, and don't even join a single club or get involved in university activities. All they do other than going to classes and working is drinking. Second, the types of jobs most college students do pay minimum wage or very close to minimum wage (we're talking the 7-9 $/hr range here). When you adjust for real wages and prices(accounting for inflation), not only has the cost of attending college skyrocked astronomically over the past few decades, but the income of a low-wage earner, in real dollars, has stagnated, and even possibly declined. So truth is, while every bit helps, the most college students are able to earn while they're going to school amounts to chump change-- maybe enough to barely cover rent and food (and forget car expenses), certainly not enough to pay for tuition on top of that. In our school newspaper yesterday they published an interesting fact-- one out of every 4 college students is without health insurance.
By the way, for every young man coming out of the military with confidence, discipline, leadership, and all that good stuff, there are just as many coming out pretty screwed up. I know someone who recently came out of the Navy, and he's now trying to support himself and go to school (the GI bill does not cover 100% of educational expenses, btw), and he is one screwed up guy, a major alcoholic.
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I do believe that college costs are a symptom of the same easy credit bubble that drove housing to insane heights. And just as the excesses of the housing bubble were not spread uniformly, neither are those in the education bubble. A college costing upwards of $50K per year may well prove to be the educational analog to California real estate...priced to absurd and unaffordable levels with the flow of easy money shut off. It'll be interesting to see enrollment in some of the expensive but less notable private universites this fall.
I'm about to go into a VERY expensive one-year master's degree program at a private school... and in California, too, as fate would have it. As I seem to have a knack at doing this, I'm also getting a pretty substantial scholarship from them, too, which is going to take a huge chunk out of the cost. It's one of the best though-- it's a top ranked, full time, accelerated program where I'll be beginning my career working in one year. In fact, other than for more higher living expenses, with the scholarship, it's not going to cost me all that much more to attend there than at a state school (where this same program typically takes 1.5-2 years to complete). Keep in mind, when making any decision, you have to look at the opportunity costs of not choosing the other options. But truth is, even state schools are not cheap. When I looked at the numbers four years ago for the cost of attending CU Boulder, as a Colorado resident, it was around $15,000 a year, totalling around $60,000 for all four years. It must be even higher than that now for incoming class of 2012 freshmen. CSU is not much cheaper. In this day and age, taking out a loan to help pay for college is a fact of life for most students. Now, why exactly the price of attending college (not just tuition, which steadily rises, but all these miscellaneous fees that keep going up, textbooks, mandatory meal plans and all these expenses, "technology" fees, etc) keeps accelerating at exponential rates?-- that's the million dollar question!
By the way, for every young man coming out of the military with confidence, discipline, leadership, and all that good stuff, there are just as many coming out pretty screwed up. I know someone who recently came out of the Navy, and he's now trying to support himself and go to school (the GI bill does not cover 100% of educational expenses, btw), and he is one screwed up guy, a major alcoholic.
Probably more coming out all screwed up than there are coming out with confidence, discipline, leadership, and all that good stuff....
Anyone who serves in the military deserves the education of their choice up to a specified limit ( $50,000 maybe? ). And for those without a military inclination, some type of non military service for a 4 year period would qualify for the same education benefit given to the military. This type of service would also educate people that there is no free lunch and help to avoid the mess we're in right now. If you want to live in a nice house you have to have a way to pay for it.
I might as well throw a few more logs on this roaring fire. While I do look at a college degree as evidence that an individual is willing to commit to finish something--achieve a goal--no matter what field the degree is in, I don't consider it an end-all, be-all credential. I've seen plenty of college graduates (even some who graduated with honors from prestigious universities) who had no real aptitude to do much of anything. I've also seen some hard-working folks with no more formal education than high school (or maybe even less) who were wildly successful both their careers and life in general. The keys to success for those who seem to "make it" no matter what their educational credentials are dedication, hard work, and--maybe--most importantly, a lifelong commitment to learning and a big dose of common horse-sense. Most of the very successful people I have known in business and government have had a big dose of that last one--common sense--no matter what other qualifications they may have possessed. A common thread in those who are NOT successful in life is usually a lack of common sense and good judgment. Whether in their personal or working life, they make poor decisions. Worse yet, they often make the same poor decisions over and over. Anybody who does anything will make some bad decisions, but the folks who succeed are usually the ones who learn from their mistakes and don't make the same big mistake twice. As an example, a person I knew years back was very intelligent, hard-working, had a first-rate education, and was personally likable--but, she kept making the same dreadful financial and lifestyle decisions over and over again. That recurring bad judgment eventually cost the lady her marriage, her career, her friendships, and her financial security. She had everything but good common sense, and that failing pretty much cost her everything else.
I might as well throw a few more logs on this roaring fire. While I do look at a college degree as evidence that an individual is willing to commit to finish something--achieve a goal--no matter what field the degree is in, I don't consider it an end-all, be-all credential. I've seen plenty of college graduates (even some who graduated with honors from prestigious universities) who had no real aptitude to do much of anything. I've also seen some hard-working folks with no more formal education than high school (or maybe even less) who were wildly successful both their careers and life in general. The keys to success for those who seem to "make it" no matter what their educational credentials are dedication, hard work, and--maybe--most importantly, a lifelong commitment to learning and a big dose of common horse-sense. Most of the very successful people I have known in business and government have had a big dose of that last one--common sense--no matter what other qualifications they may have possessed. A common thread in those who are NOT successful in life is usually a lack of common sense and good judgment. Whether in their personal or working life, they make poor decisions. Worse yet, they often make the same poor decisions over and over. Anybody who does anything will make some bad decisions, but the folks who succeed are usually the ones who learn from their mistakes and don't make the same big mistake twice. As an example, a person I knew years back was very intelligent, hard-working, had a first-rate education, and was personally likable--but, she kept making the same dreadful financial and lifestyle decisions over and over again. That recurring bad judgment eventually cost the lady her marriage, her career, her friendships, and her financial security. She had everything but good common sense, and that failing pretty much cost her everything else.
I think you've hit this point very hard and I think it's brilliantly stated! I don't particularly like admitting this, because everyone seems so education (institution-wise) driven, but my highest completed education level is high school (I did graduate - and with honors). I wasn't prepared to begin college immediately after high school, much to the dismay of my mother, but I wasn't. I was already working retail (began working at 16 while in high school) and continued that after graduating (went to full time). Over the years, I kept my eyes peeled for bigger and better things, though I never hated working retail. I enjoyed working with the general public and learning how corporations run their operations (as a customer, you don't always know what goes on behind the scenes). It was fascinating to me and I strived to learn more. I always asked questions and always showed interest; even when I wasn't interested. After 4 years of working 3 different aspects of retail, I found a job posting at the company I currently work for (been here almost 7 years). I was concerned my lack of formal education and lack of any experience in the job I was applying for would automatically disqualify me, but I had to try. Within a week, I was called in for an interview. My experience working with the general public enabled me to develop excellent verbal communication skills and the ability to thoroughly detail any message I was conveying. This shined during my initial interview; I know this, because I was told by the panel interviewing me. I was called in shortly thereafter for a final decision-making interview and was hired on the spot.
Most people I know have completed, at least, some college. Most of them hate their jobs (mostly because they majored in something they have little interest in, but they make a ton of money, so that's all that should matter). The funny thing is I make less than many of them and have more to show for it (by way of a nice home, money in savings, money wrapped up in retirement plans/funds, etc.). Most of them did what was expected of them and have gotten no further (career-wise) than I have. Some of them have, of course, because they strived for higher education and were committed to do something they felt passion for. Some of them make a lot of money and are happy, but they're few and far between.
I'm not saying one shouldn't further their knowledge through higher education, but I don't think it should define how intelligent someone is in all aspects of their being. I am recognized as being extremely intelligent by almost everyone I work with, but have far less education than all of them (I work with lawyers - and most probably don't know I have no college education). My education has come from working one-on-one with people throughout the years I've been working (10 years now) and furthuring my knowledge through questions and performance. I ALWAYS maintain a positive attitude, show interest in learning and reach for what's possible.
NickMan7, your story illustrates a very important point-- it's not necessarily about what degree you have or don't have-- it's about YOU. And Jazzlover, you're absolutely right, common sense can make or break a successful life. Just one thing though, about working in retail. I'm not sure where you've worked, NickMan7, but I've worked at three different national big box stores retailers (who shall remain nameless, although I've already named one of them in one of my past posts) and in my experience, retail is one of the absolute worst, rock-bottom industries to be in. At the stores I've been at, not only was the pay barely above minimum wage, but the managers don't even make much more than the hourly "associates." I found the work culture at those places to be a very low-achieving, zero-thinking kind of environment where everybody smokes and eats junk food every meal. With the exception of Wal-Mart, who takes labor laws VERY seriously (having been sued in the past), state labor laws such as paid 15 minute breaks every four hours are broken almost every single day at these stores. Every week the schedules are completely irregular and change every week. Most "sales associates" know jack about the products they are selling; at the stores I've worked they, they never give you the opportunity to use their computer-based training programs to learn about the products you are supposed to be knowledgable about. Even though these jobs are all part time and you need at least 2 of these retail jobs to support yourself, since you can't depend on having enough working hours each week, they want you to have 24/7 availability. At my last retail job, they let me go because I didn't have enough hours available for what they wanted; even though I had all day Fri, Sat, and Sun (the busiest times for retail) and weekday nights, that wasn't enough for them, even though they knew before I was hired that I am a full time student.
If anything, I'm glad I experienced these three jobs because it told me what I DON'T want to do as a career. I had very little opportunity to use my skills (communication, people skills, computer skills, problem solving) to help the company do better business; instead they had me moving boxes around 90% of the time, almost no interaction with customers. Personally, I don't consider any of these big-box retailers to be real jobs or training for anything in the real world. Now, if I was working for a small, family-owned business that actually cares about their customers... it might have been a different story. I think the secret to success is to eventually own your own business-- you might not become rich, but at least it's all in your own hands, and how much you want to make is directly proportional to the amount of work you put in.
By the way, for every young man coming out of the military with confidence, discipline, leadership, and all that good stuff, there are just as many coming out pretty screwed up. I know someone who recently came out of the Navy, and he's now trying to support himself and go to school (the GI bill does not cover 100% of educational expenses, btw), and he is one screwed up guy, a major alcoholic.
I can't let this one go unanswered. Show me something more believable than a single datapoint.
There's no doubt that everyone does not leave military service primed for a good life, but my extensive experience is that the majority leave better off than when they entered.
And, as Sterlinggirl points out, tuition assistance and the G.I. Bill are not a scholarship...they're pay and benefits earned through sacrifice and hard work. Huge difference there.
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It's one of the best though-- it's a top ranked, full time, accelerated program where I'll be beginning my career working in one year. In fact, other than for more higher living expenses, with the scholarship, it's not going to cost me all that much more to attend there than at a state school (where this same program typically takes 1.5-2 years to complete). Keep in mind, when making any decision, you have to look at the opportunity costs of not choosing the other options. But truth is, even state schools are not cheap. When I looked at the numbers four years ago for the cost of attending CU Boulder, as a Colorado resident, it was around $15,000 a year, totalling around $60,000 for all four years. It must be even higher than that now for incoming class of 2012 freshmen. CSU is not much cheaper. In this day and age, taking out a loan to help pay for college is a fact of life for most students. Now, why exactly the price of attending college (not just tuition, which steadily rises, but all these miscellaneous fees that keep going up, textbooks, mandatory meal plans and all these expenses, "technology" fees, etc) keeps accelerating at exponential rates?-- that's the million dollar question!