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it's funny because I posted a thread recently about this very topic that students should hold off pursuing a Computer Science degree because the prospects look bleak and posters responded that it was not true - that everything appears rosy and folks who graduated with a Comp Sci degree after racking up tons of debt had a very bright future blah blah
Now here people are pessimistic? where are all the optimists from the other thread?
it would be great if posters here could be more consistent
I'm consistent
Worked in IT/CS 20+ years and recommended CS as a minor not major in that other thread.
Computer knowledge is great but not a ticket to a job unless you plan to move to India/China.
India hired over 500K programmers last year
Great year for them..bad for us as most of those were OUR old jobs.
Worked in IT/CS 20+ years and recommended CS as a minor not major in that other thread.
Computer knowledge is great but not a ticket to a job unless you plan to move to India/China.
India hired over 500K programmers last year
Great year for them..bad for us as most of those were OUR old jobs.
I think my major contribution to that thread was arguing that IT and Comp Sci were different, and also that IT people would be one of the last professions to be fully gone from our shores.
However, because IT may be a little more employable a little longer then other fields, doesnt mean its rosy at all. As more and more industries are automated or offshored, or just become extinct, the people getting axed out of those jobs will jump wholesale on the few that are left.
I like to think of it as a bunch of life boats after a ship sinks. One lift raft sinks, the people off that one disperse on to other boats. Some get on another boat, bring that one a little further down (flooding the remaining strong fields), a couple might find a piece of wood to cling to (new industry), many just drown. Then the next boat sinks, wash, rinse, repeat. Bottom line, everyone cant fit on that last boat, or the few pieces of wood floating around.
I think my major contribution to that thread was arguing that IT and Comp Sci were different, and also that IT people would be one of the last professions to be fully gone from our shores.
However, because IT may be a little more employable a little longer then other fields, doesnt mean its rosy at all. As more and more industries are automated or offshored, or just become extinct, the people getting axed out of those jobs will jump wholesale on the few that are left.
I like to think of it as a bunch of life boats after a ship sinks. One lift raft sinks, the people off that one disperse on to other boats. Some get on another boat, bring that one a little further down (flooding the remaining strong fields), a couple might find a piece of wood to cling to (new industry), many just drown. Then the next boat sinks, wash, rinse, repeat. Bottom line, everyone cant fit on that last boat, or the few pieces of wood floating around.
I see it here in Austin..way too many displaced "web developers" who have migrated to Texas and can't find jobs. You now have even device driver writers applying for web development jobs. Just a few short years ago those guys wouldn't be caught dead applying for jobs like that.
Thats debateable. There are as many people who debate trickle down as accept it.
Debate all you want here is a recent example:
Quote:
In fact, the benefits of low taxes are already on full display in Iceland, which provides an almost perfect demonstration of the Laffer Curve, says the Journal:
From 1991 to 2001, as the corporate-tax rate fell gradually to 18 percent from 45 percent, tax revenues tripled to 9.1 billion kronas (U.S. $135 million in today's exchange rate) from just above 3 billion kronas (U.S. $44.5. million).
Since 2001, revenues more than tripled again to an estimated 33 billion kronas (U.S. $490 million) last year.
Personal income-tax rates were cut gradually as well, to a flat rate of 22.75 percent this year from 33 percent in 1995; meanwhile, the economy averaged annual growth rates of about 4 percent over the past decade.
Iceland did undergo a financial mess HOWEVER THAT doesn't disprove the science behind it.
It's simple - people will spend money much more efficiently than the government ever will after taking it from us.
Quote:
So, are you also saying that there are enough skilled jobs for all the unskilled labor? If we all go out and get masters degrees right now, we all will be employed in high paying good jobs?
I dont know, without touching the outright planning of the economy, Marx style, we can start by making college free and merit based. At least then we can control the supply side of "qualified" job applicants, and prevent people who will never have gainful employment in the field they paid 40k for a degree in, from going in to that unneccessary debt.
If you make college free you exacerbate the problem. Everyone will go to college and most will have degrees. Just like the federal student loan programs, this will devalue the education. A college education these days is really akin to a high school one of 10-20 years ago. A masters is akin to a 4-year.
Quote:
We can also force businesses to distribute larger chunks of their revenue as wages by minimum wage laws.
Costs are already too high for companies here, that will just make things worse.
Quote:
Or, for once the USA can take advantage of its position as the consumer of the world, and prop up tariffs large enough to force manufacturing back to American shores.
That has never worked. You end of isolating the country and others slap on tariffs to our goods. The solution is to reduce corporate tax rates and provide a positive environment for business, which we haven't done.
That has never worked. You end of isolating the country and others slap on tariffs to our goods. The solution is to reduce corporate tax rates and provide a positive environment for business, which we haven't done.
There have been periods when tariffs worked; like any other tools (including free trade) tariffs are useful in some situations and not in others. It might be we need to go through a period of high tariffs like we had in the 19th Century in order to then be able to afford to go back to free trade. There are no basic laws of economics that hold true in all situations.
Nor do people share a common economic and political interest anyway. You know what's good for you but I know what's good for me and they might not be the same things. Much political effort goes into bull****ting people that what's good for them is bad for them. This is the basis of Republican politics, there not being enough millionaires and business owners to put them in office.
In any event if the "laws of economics" dictate that American have to become low paid, servile lickspittles to business we might as well appeal to the laws of ballistics; they often trump.
People always bring up the corporate tax but it is such a small part of the of the picture. We are sue happy in the US. Open a business an odds are good you may be sued. Let's not forget the judge putting a little guy out of business over lost pants. Small business get sued everyday. Big business have big law firms on stand by. There is a reason for that. Then there is health care it is a huge mess. You can hire two workers in India for what it cost to cover one US worker. Wages are super low 15k a year for an engineer. India mints about 300k band new engineers. China you can have a good engineer for about 10k. Tons of good paying white collar work back office jobs have gone to India and China the work can get the job done 3 to 5k a worker. Jobs that paid anywhere from 30 to 60k. Lower end white collar jobs for college grads gone. Middle management jobs gone nowhere to move to if you land a job on the lower end of some company. Please read some books on offshore tax havens all of big business uses them. They do not pay those high rates. Add in your overhead cost water rent power ect. Now on top of that put some state red tape local red tape the EPA Workers comp rates ect. You have a whole host of issues you have to deal with before you even make a dime of profit to get taxed on. If you go offshore you deal with almost none or very little of this
People always bring up the corporate tax but it is such a small part of the of the picture. We are sue happy in the US. Open a business an odds are good you may be sued. Let's not forget the judge putting a little guy out of business over lost pants. Small business get sued everyday. Big business have big law firms on stand by. There is a reason for that. Then there is health care it is a huge mess. You can hire two workers in India for what it cost to cover one US worker. Wages are super low 15k a year for an engineer. India mints about 300k band new engineers. China you can have a good engineer for about 10k. Tons of good paying white collar work back office jobs have gone to India and China the work can get the job done 3 to 5k a worker. Jobs that paid anywhere from 30 to 60k. Lower end white collar jobs for college grads gone. Middle management jobs gone nowhere to move to if you land a job on the lower end of some company. Please read some books on offshore tax havens all of big business uses them. They do not pay those high rates. Add in your overhead cost water rent power ect. Now on top of that put some state red tape local red tape the EPA Workers comp rates ect. You have a whole host of issues you have to deal with before you even make a dime of profit to get taxed on. If you go offshore you deal with almost none or very little of this
In other words, bring China/India to America. Sounds fantastic, heck I'll start making the white flags; maybe I can re-invent myself after all for some more chump change wages....
This country doesn't need more Reaganomics, we need a labor party like a crackhead needs an intervention.
That not what I am saying. I almost always agree with you. No we should not give up no white flags. The Reps and Dems are bought and paid for it like saying which mafia family is going to give me a better rate on a loan. They need huge amounts of cash to run every year. The are not getting it from bake sales. They are getting it from big business. They owe favors they have to be paid back. Dem or Rep the US worker is at the bottom of the list. I just trying to point out their are a dozen other reasons beside taxes for loss of US jobs. Some guys like cutting taxes will save us. There a host of other issues. But nobody wants to talk about that. It like them saying we need more educated workers they could care less. That why I bougth engineers their guys on here who say go be an engineer like that will save everyone it will not. Dems are big backers of India Inc their are dozens of them in their pocket. I just trying to show wheelsup taxes is not the only issue. Their are dozens of worker visa porgrams to bring workers from India and Chnia. They are already bringing India/ China to the US. They do not care what I or you think dem or rep dose not matter. The H1B has killed the IT sector for US workers. I have buddies and famliy in it. But then I see these things in the media every week. We need more kids with better math skills ect. The engineers in India cost 10 cents on the dollar. No Rep or Dem talk about that at all. It is are kids are not educated that has nothing to do with it. Tom can major in engineering all he likes but the guy in India will do it for 15K a year. The US business modle is based on greed. So I want to offshore my business I just have buy off a few Reps and Dems it passes bye bye Us worker. And hey if it gets out in the media I will just blame the other guy. If I am a Rep blame the Dem. If I am a Dem blame the Rep. They both help pass the bill to offshore jobs. Meanwhile most workers do not care as long as it is not their jobs. The Feds give huge tax breaks to offshore jobs. Dem or Rep we do not matter to them. Hindsight2020 you are very knowledgeable I enjoy your posts.
That not what I am saying. I almost always agree with you. No we should not give up no white flags. The Reps and Dems are bought and paid for it like saying which mafia family is going to give me a better rate on a loan. They need huge amounts of cash to run every year. The are not getting it from bake sales. They are getting it from big business. They owe favors they have to be paid back. Dem or Rep the US worker is at the bottom of the list. I just trying to point out their are a dozen other reasons beside taxes for loss of US jobs. Some guys like cutting taxes will save us. There a host of other issues. But nobody wants to talk about that. It like them saying we need more educated workers they could care less. That why I bougth engineers their guys on here who say go be an engineer like that will save everyone it will not. Dems are big backers of India Inc their are dozens of them in their pocket. I just trying to show wheelsup taxes is not the only issue. Their are dozens of worker visa porgrams to bring workers from India and Chnia. They are already bringing India/ China to the US. They do not care what I or you think dem or rep dose not matter. The H1B has killed the IT sector for US workers. I have buddies and famliy in it. But then I see these things in the media every week. We need more kids with better math skills ect. The engineers in India cost 10 cents on the dollar. No Rep or Dem talk about that at all. It is are kids are not educated that has nothing to do with it. Tom can major in engineering all he likes but the guy in India will do it for 15K a year. The US business modle is based on greed. So I want to offshore my business I just have buy off a few Reps and Dems it passes bye bye Us worker. And hey if it gets out in the media I will just blame the other guy. If I am a Rep blame the Dem. If I am a Dem blame the Rep. They both help pass the bill to offshore jobs. Meanwhile most workers do not care as long as it is not their jobs. The Feds give huge tax breaks to offshore jobs. Dem or Rep we do not matter to them. Hindsight2020 you are very knowledgeable I enjoy your posts.
No sweat, re-read your post, this one helped clarify your position. We're good
Good you are a cool guy in my book we think along the same lines most of the time. I have been reading your posts for years. You are almost always on point. I can tell you and few others are well read and a deep thinkers to bad that almost a thing of the of the past. So you always got a friend in me. We got to educate some people around I have been around here for years reading posts. But now I joined up. It gets real old people buy what ever they are told. On the right or left they never read about any issue more deeply. Dem and Reps should wear outfits like they do in racing that way I could know who bought them lol People think just because Rush or some bag of wind on the left speak they know something. Are they for real who paying for the airtime on the on these shows big business. Big business is all about more profit but who buying the products if we are all laid off. Or being paid China or India wages?
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