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No landlord is likely going to be interested in the direct products of your labor. That after all is the point of money....
But this is just another one of your banal "If you did not get into an elite college, you did not work hard, are a loser, etc" posts.
That is the truth. If you slacked off when you were younger, (or if you worked hard but made idiotic decisions - for example picking a useless major), who is to blame if you end up unemployed for an extended period of time with student loans coming out of college, or even employed in some $8/hr Starbucks job?
If you slacked off when you were younger, (or if you worked hard but made idiotic decisions - for example picking a useless major), who is to blame if you end up unemployed for an extended period of time with student loans coming out of college, or even employed in some $8/hr Starbucks job?
Blaming someone that has been shackled to the ground for not running does not make all that much sense. Your obsession with blame is not healthy.
The world is more complex than your simplistic understanding of it. Unfortunately universities these days don't provide perspective and a true education.
And who is to blame when someone got sub-par grades in high school (because he partied and didn't do any work), went to a second or third-tier college, majored in basket-weaving, got a mediocre GPA (because he spent most of his college years partying), and ends up unemployed for a very long time?
Everyone cannot get in to Princeton. If every high school grad had a 4.0, Princeton would be even more selective, so they could still maintain their elitist acceptance rate.
Obviously whatever school you went to neglected to teach you very basic statistics. Stating that someone deserves to be broke and unemployed because they fell outside of the top 10 percent, is simply idiotic.
Do you mean unless they work in your favor? This is a dumb statement, Mr. I went to Carnegie Mellon . I expect more from someone of your caliber.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
What are the employment rates for these grads, compared to those with top science and math degrees from Ivy League (and equivalent) universities?
I'd bother to look it up for you, but you said that stats were meaningless. (see quote above)
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Philosophy majors can make $40K / year average, but (1) what percentage of them are working in their field and (2) what is their employment rate?
A lot of people don't work directly in their field, per se. In fact, I'm pretty sure you said in a previous thread that you're doing something outside your field. I am, too. How is this news?
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
A philosophy degree is not "worth" $40K / year. No one says, "oh you have a Philosophy degree, here's $40K / year"..
I never said I thought they were. I only came to this conclusion from the data that is currently available.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Going by your logic, I could say that being a lottery winner is the best job to have, so everyone should start buying tickets."
You lost me with this statement. I apologize...I'm probably not smart enough to follow along because of my liberal arts background.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Some things (Stats 101) aren't taught in a liberal arts curriculum.
I don't mean to play semantics with you, but anything can be taught in any curriculum. If you changed your wording to "required", you would have a valid point. For example, Stats 101 isn't required for many Liberal Arts degrees at my alma mater (i.e. English, Art History, Philosophy, etc.). This doesn't mean that someone who's majoring in English that wants to make themselves more marketable can't load up on quants. When you make statements like this, I think you're referring to the folks that do only the minimum to graduate. I know very few people who did this, so I don't think it's quite fair of you to insinuate such.
Though a particular class or group of classes isn't a requirement for some major, it doesn't mean that it isn't taught to someone who wants to take it. I had a Facebook friend who majored in Econ and worked for Facebook as a developer immediately following graduation. He wasn't required to learn web programming as an Econ major, but he took classes for it anyways. And it wasn't like the registrar forbade him to enroll.
Oh and FYI, there are L.A. majors where Stats and upper level Calc classes are required at my alma mater. Economics stands out in my mind. Also, I believe Stats and Calc were required for PolySci degrees. Stats may have been required for History and Sociology majors as well (but I'm not positive). Just thought I'd shed some light on that.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
$17 / hr is peanuts compared to:.
I'm glad you think so. I have several friends with Business oriented degrees who are either unemployed or making significantly less than that and would kill for that kind of loot. Of course, we all come from blue collar backgrounds, so we probably have lower expectations than someone with your elitist background. Keep in mind, we all didn't grow up on the right side of the tracks.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
What liberal arts program can boast that placement rate, even in this recession?
I'm going to defer to your statement above.
Um...I think it was
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Stats are meaningless.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
In addition, most civil jobs (fireman, policeman, etc) pay more than $17 / hr, come with a pension after 20 years, and you don't need a college degree to get in.
And given that their lives are on the line each day they show up to work, I think they're grossly underpaid. But, because we have people like you in the world, who are only concerned with how much $$$ you can bank, many of the professions that make the biggest impacts in our lives (teachers, soldiers, police officers, firemen, EMTs) are paid peanuts. Why? Well, because they're nothing more than a cost in your eyes; they do nothing for the bottom line.
That is the truth. If you slacked off when you were younger, (or if you worked hard but made idiotic decisions - for example picking a useless major), who is to blame if you end up unemployed for an extended period of time with student loans coming out of college, or even employed in some $8/hr Starbucks job?
Regarding her degree (Bachelor's Bus. Admin. and Information Technology), isn't that very similar to yours (Business Information Systems)? How does this fit your criteria of a useless degree?
I admit, it seems like she took out a lot of money for her education, but maybe she was expecting to make $60k or $70k out of college because of some statistic that was provided to her. She took a gamble, just like you and I. We got lucky, she didn't. If she'd have gone to Princeton or Harvard, her debt would probably be close to twice that. I'd be pissed, too, if I were in her situation.
there are certain things you cannot fix, and a person with grandiose expectations -with a low college GPA- thinking that she was sitting on top of the world because of "good attendance" would likely be the first person to sue when she did not get her way. instead of turning the direction inward for answers, she externalizes it since, in her own mind, somebody "owes" her something.
i don't know whether she is going to win or lose that lawsuit, but i predict a difficult life for her.
Do you mean unless they work in your favor? This is a dumb statement, Mr. I went to Carnegie Mellon . I expect more from someone of your caliber.
No, what I meant to say was that your stats were meaningless. Psychology degree = $40K / year? Really? Do your stats account for selection bias? Who is reporting these numbers? Only the psych majors who are employed? What about the ones who are unemployed? How many of them are out there? How do these numbers get reported? Are students going onto http://www.naceweb.org and reporting them? Or are the colleges giving this data? What about the psych majors that work min. wage (or close to it) jobs? How willing would they be to put on a survey "I graduated from XX college with a Bachelors in Psychology and I am making $8/hr as a janitor"? Or would they be too embarrassed to? Like you said, "I have several friends with Business oriented degrees who are either unemployed or making significantly less than that and would kill for that kind of loot." Are they included in the NACE numbers, dragging down the average?
Again, what liberal arts program can boast a 90% placement rate when it comes to employment? Or even close to that?
I came from a working class background too, buddy. Your perception of income changes when you study your ass off to get into a good school and see what you can make of yourself when you graduate.
Do you really think that civil servants are underpaid? What is the incentive to pay them extra? They won't work any harder, and it's not like there are a shortage of people who want to become a policeman / fireman / etc.
And regarding that girl that is suing her college, she attended Monroe College, which is a for-profit college, similar to the University of Phoenix. I know what it takes to get into there (a pulse), and if she only managed a 2.7, then it's no wonder why she's unemployed, no matter if she majored in Engineering or IT. It's still a for-profit college, and holds no value. Actually, if she'd have gone to Princeton or Harvard, they would have given her enough financial aid that she would have attended for free...but she's too dumb to get in.
Last edited by NYCAnalyst; 03-23-2010 at 04:51 PM..
College salary statistics are mostly BS, manipulated and completely unreliable, even those from pretty high ranking schools. They have lots of latitude to include/not include certain data points, and do everything possible to make the numbers look as good as possible.
A much better way of looking at university numbers is take 25% off what they report - that is probably much closer to the "real" average - I don't care if you are talking about U of Phoenix or Harvard. Obviously that's not a perfect way to find the real number, but it will get much closer to it than taking what they report at face value.
"as far as i can tell (although the numbers change depending on sources) goldman took 12 billion from the government (digg), paid back 10 billion, (usa today) and gave themselves 14.2 billion in bonuses. (csmonitor)"
bonuses were 16.2 billion
they only repaid what they borrowed from Treasury in the TARP program (10 billion).
of course, the main reason they were able to pay back TARP so fast was the Fed pumped 2 trillion dollars into the financial markets in 1 year and made it easy for the large banks to sell preferred with the explict federal guarantees on 1 trillion dollars of the banks' losses..
they received 20 billion dollars in settlements on debts owed by AIG and its subsidiaries. these weren't limited to just the credit default swaps but the securities owned by AIG that were held by the Fed and GS as collateral for cash AIG borrowed from GS.
No, what I meant to say was that your stats were meaningless. Psychology degree = $40K / year? Really? Do your stats account for selection bias? Who is reporting these numbers? Only the psych majors who are employed? What about the ones who are unemployed? How many of them are out there? How do these numbers get reported? Are students going onto http://www.naceweb.org and reporting them? Or are the colleges giving this data? What about the psych majors that work min. wage (or close to it) jobs? How willing would they be to put on a survey "I graduated from XX college with a Bachelors in Psychology and I am making $8/hr as a janitor"? Or would they be too embarrassed to? Like you said, "I have several friends with Business oriented degrees who are either unemployed or making significantly less than that and would kill for that kind of loot." Are they included in the NACE numbers, dragging down the average?
These same questions can be posed for anyone with a degree in engineering, BIS, Marketing, Accounting, etc. If I were unemployed, I might feel inclined to actually spend the countless hours it would take to answer all of your questions. On second thought, I probably wouldn't, because we'd keep going back and forth regardless of what I presented.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Again, what liberal arts program can boast a 90% placement rate when it comes to employment? Or even close to that?
How is this any different than any other sales pitch made by some for-profit college? You think that just because a college isn't formally deemed as for-profit that they're not trying to make money to dump back into their fledgling programs? C'mooooooonnnn, man!
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
I came from a working class background too, buddy. Your perception of income changes when you study your ass off to get into a good school and see what you can make of yourself when you graduate.
Well then, welcome to the club. It feels pretty good, doesn't it? That is until you come across some smug kid posting a bunch of BS nonsense about how worthless your education is.
You don't know me or what I'm capable of. If you even knew half the $h*t I've done in my short lifetime, it might blow your mind. Just to give you some insight about me, I've been flown across country for IT-related competitions, at no expense to me. So don't judge me or any other person with an L.A. degree for that matter. They may know more than you give them credit for. Didn't your parents teach you that?
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
Do you really think that civil servants are underpaid? What is the incentive to pay them extra? They won't work any harder, and it's not like there are a shortage of people who want to become a policeman / fireman / etc.
Exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Hey, if you can exploit them, why not? Right? Whatever, I get it. Supply & Demand.
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Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst
And regarding that girl that is suing her college, she attended Monroe College, which is a for-profit college, similar to the University of Phoenix. I know what it takes to get into there (a pulse), and if she only managed a 2.7, then it's no wonder why she's unemployed, no matter if she majored in Engineering or IT. It's still a for-profit college, and holds no value. Actually, if she'd have gone to Princeton or Harvard, they would have given her enough financial aid that she would have attended for free...but she's too dumb to get in.
Yeah, I've read this story before. I see that you don't think so lowly of the degree she received, but rather the school she attended.
Don't quote me, but in the version of the story I read, I got the impression she was suing due to false advertisement by the school, as in the school guaranteed her a position after she graduated, but nothing ever came of it. Again, don't quote me. That's how I originally understood it.
Look, we've gone way off topic of the original thread. I've had this debate with another C-D user before and trust me, nothing good ever came of it. What's the point? You obviously have it ingrained in your brain that L.A. is a complete waste of time and money. Maybe you're not an English Lit kinda guy. Maybe you're politically apathetic and could care less about political systems. Maybe you think art is for wusses. Maybe you've had your mind set from day one on the fat paycheck you were going to receive as soon as you graduated (that's the purpose of college for a lot of people). I don't know, and frankly I don't care. What I do know is that people in the past and present have made lucrative careers with their L.A. degrees. Just like any degree in any field, they've supplemented it with experience and additional skills training. I'll work my tail off to follow in their footsteps.
This recession, on the other hand, may very well change the way people pick a major. In fact, I've been seeing exactly that amongst some of my friends. I'm sure we'll see the results of this in the next decade or so.
All I can say is that we're both employed and (I'm assuming) we're both doing fairly well. Why not be happy for that? I'm sure neither of us are a threat to each other's job, so I don't see any point in carrying on this debate to nowhere. Hopefully you agree.
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. I expect more from someone of your caliber.
