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Old 03-23-2010, 05:36 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,685,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscottscotto View Post
Guess more than half the country is fringe then. Take away 13% who think the bill didn't go far enough (liberals), and only 45% of the country oppose this bill passing because it goes too far. And 47%-48% voted for McCain. So that means 52% that voted Obama in the election are "fringe" and the 55% that wanted a bill like this (or something more) are fringe? Can a fringe be a majority?
i guess we will find out in november


once again, denninger has done his homework and comes up with some facts on the health care bill, with a very good article:
Health Care: Arbitrage Obama And The Dems - The Market Ticker

i think this observation was especially good:
This, by the way, will bankrupt the insurance companies in the end. Nobody will buy until they have HIV, Cancer or some other serious illness - then they will buy, and the companies will have to pay - with no lifetime caps or exclusions for pre-existing conditions.

The health care companies that are getting a rocket shot today in the stock market are being bought by fools. (end)

and when the health insurance companies stop paying, GUESS WHO PAYS?
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:25 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
8,035 posts, read 11,819,045 times
Reputation: 7995
If the penalty is $4,000 or less, it is certainly better to pay the penalty, not least because I expect the quality of care, which is mediocre at best, to decline, possibly at an accelerating rate, making the "medical tourism" abroad option that much more attractive than it already is.

A truly free-market system, though ideal in principle, would probably be brutal in practice, what we have now is horrible (with or without this "reform"), a single-payer system is also horrible.

Let's face it: from an economic efficiency perspective, it is horrible to care for/keep alive unproductive people.

Having said that, then, a single-payer system, with full "service" is probably the least horrible solution, provided that they can keep the tax at around 3%-4% of AGI, letting people die because of mediocre service, and not because of lack of "official" willingness, thus maintaining the propaganda of a "civil" society, like we've had a "civil" credit and housing policy over the past ten or so years (how did that turn out?).

The Rule of Dumb.

Realize that if we are heading towards a single world government, it will be more like China and India and Latin America, by sheer force of numbers, than like the bygone classical period of the United States, a relatively short period in human history for the relatively privileged few.

Good Luck!

Last edited by bale002; 03-23-2010 at 06:43 AM..
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:57 AM
 
8,666 posts, read 5,574,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AADAD View Post
The new law will save billions.
Nope. It will just "move" the cost from the uninsured to the overtaxed.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:39 AM
 
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another way to pull money in the reconciliation bill:

The reconciliation bill alters both funding mechanisms. First, it scales back the insurance excise tax by increasing the dollar thresholds triggering the tax — from $8,500 to $10,200 for single coverage, and from $23,000 to $27,500 for family plans. It also delays the application of that tax until 2018.

To make up the revenues lost by changes to the excise tax, the reconciliation bill also expands the Medicare tax to include net investment income (i.e. unearned income).
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treasurekidd View Post
Paragraph 2 of the Declaration Of Independence. Unalienable Rights, endowed by the creator and affirmed by our founding fathers.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Wow, liberty is "god given"? So if someone throws you in a dungeon, is god going to smite them? Or are the people going to bring a criminal charge against them?

I could care less what some human man wrote about "rights" he was granted by a supernatural phantom. Without the laws that he and his human brethren created and enforce, there would be no rights. Hell, they say as much in the following line.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,399,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyG View Post
You're not missing anything. My full timers will become part timers.
and your part timers will all quit and move to a business that is a little less greedy.

You can then have you selection of high school dropouts and others who are forced to work in part time benefitless jobs. I hope the new Mercedes is worth it.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:54 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,685,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
and your part timers will all quit and move to a business that is a little less greedy.

You can then have you selection of high school dropouts and others who are forced to work in part time benefitless jobs. I hope the new Mercedes is worth it.
i guess you haven't noticed that there are less jobs out there now, and the job destruction continues.

maybe the government should be less greedy.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,399,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drshang View Post
AADAD,

Exactly. Many people just assume that healthcare is some enormous cost and that poor people without insurance just get sick and die.

What do they do? The same thing everyone else does when they get sick...they go to the hospital. Can they pay the bill? Of course not...but they still get care. Someone pays for the bill nonetheless, and it's not the poor, uninsured people who get sacked with the $50,000 hospital bill.

At the end of the day a lot of these people would create much less cost to the healthcare system if they got treatment ahead of time, before requiring an ER visit.

I am not a huge fan of the healthcare bill, but it's better than the system we have now, which is where uninsured people use the ER for "routine" care.

If you ask me, people who think that this bill will get overturned in the courts are completely full of themselves. Really unlikely to ever happen.

My biggest problem with it, is that I dont see any guarantee that the poor people who cant afford care now, are going to be fully compensated for the outflow from their pocket for coverage. We are talking about people who cant even afford an extra $20 a month, now you are going to force them to buy some private insurance or be fined/possibly imprisoned?

My further problem is that, where are all the measures to keep costs down? How is the government proposing to cut the huge profits medical companies are making to get costs in line? How is this simply not going to become corporate welfare by press ganging the 50 million people without coverage now in to paying customers under the threat of fines/imprisonment?
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:20 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,685,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
My biggest problem with it, is that I dont see any guarantee that the poor people who cant afford care now, are going to be fully compensated for the outflow from their pocket for coverage. We are talking about people who cant even afford an extra $20 a month, now you are going to force them to buy some private insurance or be fined/possibly imprisoned?

My further problem is that, where are all the measures to keep costs down? How is the government proposing to cut the huge profits medical companies are making to get costs in line? How is this simply not going to become corporate welfare by press ganging the 50 million people without coverage now in to paying customers under the threat of fines/imprisonment?
they don't care about keeping costs down!

as i posted before, 3/4 of all medical bankruptcies happen to people with medical insurance already. this was never intended to be a "health care" fix, but rather a revenue generator, a new tax to keep government chugging along, spending without interruption.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Castle Hills
1,133 posts, read 2,420,091 times
Reputation: 611
Can we get off the whole god talk/ hatred of god talk? Just let it die already. Lets continue discussing the terrible unconstitutional healthcare bill that Obama is about to sign and what we can do to reverse it. I noticed that several states are already lined up to sue the government as soon as the bill is signed.
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