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Wrong, the rich have already built wealth. You (the average American citizen) will suffer the most from this. Socialist programs oppress people and force them to stay at their current social standing because it makes it harder to build wealth. In a true free market economy there would be a lot more "rich" people than there are now. But every time you increase taxes or add more socialist programs you push some of the "rich" into the middle class and in return they make it harder to climb out of that standing due to the tax oppression. You need not worry about the people that have already accumulated wealth, but worry about yourself and your kids, because now the government is making it much harder to succeed. It's ok though, because they promise you "security." Take away freedoms one by one and promise you security in return, thats the world I want to live in...
It's really sad, thanks to the income tax our society has become a you vs me society. If there was a flat tax (that should be around 10% and we cut all these useless gov't programs) then it would turn into an US vs Gov't mentality. That's the mentality I hope for sometime before I die, I won't hold my breathe though.
Many good posts here, but this is one of the best posts on the subject yet
My father used to tell me since I was little "Work hard now to work easy later"...decades later I'm really understanding what his words meant.
My hardest work was as an undergrad in college, a had a few semesters averaging 4-5 hours of sleep. Most others were partying, "living it up", doing the regular college thing, etc. I was staying up until 2-3AM reading, doing practice problems, studying, programming the computer lab and learning as much as I could about computer theory...to the point almost nobody could believe. I remembered those words and just knew that someday it would pay off. One day it finally did, and I have absolutely no regrets for the sacrifices I made back then.
Now I have a more normal lifestyle. I usually work 45-65 hr weeks, but it's not nearly as strenuous and crazy as it was in my undergrad Computer Science/Physics program.
Do other people who make less money work harder than me now? Sure they do, and I have no problem admitting this. I have no doubt in my mind that saw mill workers, landscapers, steel workers etc have less fun than I do at my job and work harder than me now. I have respect for people in these professions and realize that their jobs are a necessity in this society.
But in most cases they didn't work nearly as hard as top software developers, physicists, surgeons etc to acquire these skills. I think we can agree on that.
How exactly are they turning their wealth over to the rich?
Check out the Gini index over the past 30 years.
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Originally Posted by wanneroo
We are a very mobile society now with internet and communication capabilities. Don't like your job or your pay, get another.
There are far more people looking for work then jobs......that means this is not realistic.
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Originally Posted by wanneroo
There is a difference between working hard and working smart. Plenty of people "work hard" but don't generate a great deal of value, hence they don't get paid well either.
Wage is not related to value generation, its related to skill scarcity (that is, if you ignore people who get paid by nepotism and connections).
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Originally Posted by wanneroo
The smart workers educate themselves, seek out new opportunities, grow, develop and expand their boundaries.
Actually, nine times out of ten, stupid people "educate" themselves.
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Originally Posted by wanneroo
I think what you are waiting for is for someone to forcibly hand over their wealth to you for nothing.
My labor value can be measured. I want it. Im not asking for anything I didnt earn.
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Originally Posted by wanneroo
The best thing is to get off yer butt and start finding ways of making yourself valuable enough to earn that wealth. No one is going to pay you $250K a year to operate a french fryer.
Nor should they, but french fryer operators are generating far more value then their next to minimum or minimum wage. The difference is, the guy who owns the McDonalds is cashing in off the difference because the french fryer is viewed as highly replaceable, and therefore only "worth" X dollars an hour, which is FAR below the amount of profits they generate.
I am only a statistical outlier because I made myself one. Do you think it was easy going to the library while my friends went to night clubs, or sitting in my dorm room studying while my friends were in the next room watching movies and playing Nintendo? How about 120 hour work weeks away from my wife and kids during 4 years of residency?
Here is the thing. If all of your friends put in all of the work you did.....was there room for all of them in med school, was there the market for all of them? Maybe one of them bumps you out of medical school?
The world can only absorb X number of any one position. The highest paid professions have the least room for people to enter them and be financially successful.
Those investment bankers you keep going on about, you realize that the ones on Wall Street are either nepotismed there or are the cream of the Ivy League crop. Big firms can take their pick from Harvard, Wharton, etc. The number of people that get in to this tiny little club, are not even a fraction of 1% of all finance graduates. That is all the room there is for the future of Wall Street fat cats. The rest of the finance grads, well, they can try to start their own hedge fund or investment bank if they made good enough contacts with wealthy people while in Wharton, but in general, most of them will end up filtering down. They will become corporate financial analysts, accountants, business managers, and even financial planners/block in a pyramid scheme. At every step, there is only limited room. When you get down to financial planner/block in a pyramid scheme, which is a worthless job that practically anyone can get, and nobody wants, that is the only place that gives little resistance to hiring.
Randomdude - you are right about one thing - the french fry operator does not have scarce skills. Virtually anyone can do that job with one hour of training. A 6th grade education should be enough. Hence the low pay.
Here is the thing. If all of your friends put in all of the work you did.....was there room for all of them in med school, was there the market for all of them? Maybe one of them bumps you out of medical school?
The world can only absorb X number of any one position. The highest paid professions have the least room for people to enter them and be financially successful.
But in this example, most wouldn't have the drive to go to med-school, so that would never happen. It's just human nature and it's been like this for thousands of years. There will be a small minority of people who, starting from a very young age, will push themselves to 95-100% of their capacity to be able to be successful in a position requiring very critical and unique skills.
Most will choose not to do this and relax more in their lives, they probably won't be as financially successful but it's perfectly fine and no shame in making that choice either.
My point is that it has been this way for centuries and it will not change as long as a free-market system stays in place. There will always be those who make huge sacrifices to get ahead and those more complacent with living a normal life. Far less than half of the population will be in the former category so people will not be "bumped out".
Here is the thing. If all of your friends put in all of the work you did.....was there room for all of them in med school, was there the market for all of them? Maybe one of them bumps you out of medical school?
The world can only absorb X number of any one position. The highest paid professions have the least room for people to enter them and be financially successful.
Those investment bankers you keep going on about, you realize that the ones on Wall Street are either nepotismed there or are the cream of the Ivy League crop. Big firms can take their pick from Harvard, Wharton, etc. The number of people that get in to this tiny little club, are not even a fraction of 1% of all finance graduates. That is all the room there is for the future of Wall Street fat cats. The rest of the finance grads, well, they can try to start their own hedge fund or investment bank if they made good enough contacts with wealthy people while in Wharton, but in general, most of them will end up filtering down. They will become corporate financial analysts, accountants, business managers, and even financial planners/block in a pyramid scheme. At every step, there is only limited room. When you get down to financial planner/block in a pyramid scheme, which is a worthless job that practically anyone can get, and nobody wants, that is the only place that gives little resistance to hiring.
I just gave NSX reps for responding with pretty much what I was going to say.
I will just add that you are actually making my point here. It is the competition for the high paying jobs that usually makes sure that the people with the best of the best skills are doing them. Sure, nepotism is an unfortunate side effect, but it is worth it to make sure that MOST people are the ones you want doing that job. If everyone made the sacrifices I made, then I would have to work EVEN HARDER. This can only be a good thing for medicine. After all, do you want a "C" student who slacked off his whole life performing your fathers heart surgery? Of course not. That is why capitalism works. When it is working as it is supposed to work, it rewards the people who go the extra mile to be the best at their job, and give the most value to society. There are people out there getting $500.00 for a haircut. There are people who started out making fries that now own 5 McDonalds franchises. There are some lawyers out there who cant make $50,000 a year, and others making $50,000 a week. What is the difference between the two? You can say nepotism all you want, but nepotism can only get you in the door. It doesn't win you multi million dollar trials. All-nighters in the law library does.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-18-2010 at 04:11 PM..
What I find absolutely crazy is how some on the far political left complain about the "rich doctors" who make over six figures. However, they're extremely quiet about Hollywood movie stars who make $10M+. Who adds more value to society? Gee, let's think about this one for a second
To put things in context I'm a project manager at a software company and while I have no professional connection to the medical industry, this is extremely personal to me. I'll explain without getting into too many details. One of my immediate family members would have died in a short period of time, if not for an emergency surgery from an extremely skilled doctor. It's been five years now, and he's doing great. In my mind, the surgeon who saved his life deserves to be a billionaire. Certain doctors make more than me, and does that upset me? Not in the least. I think it's essential that they do. Skilled doctors provide the most value out of any profession in this country, bar none. Unfortunately, many people don't realize this until it's too late.
If keeping the salaries of doctors high will bring the most talented people into the medical industry, nobody in their right mind should have an objection. In my opinion, they should be paid even more. Whatever the case, the government stepping in and taking steps that will indirectly, and sometimes directly, lower the salary of health-care professionals is absolutely the most self-destructive thing this country can do. Politicians frequently talk about making things "fair" by redistribution of wealth, when they have no idea of what real fairness is.
For the people here in the camp of Burger King and other minimum wage employees should be paid more and doctors should be paid less, My message to you is this: You will think twice if and when a critical surgery is needed for a family member or yourself.
What I find absolutely crazy is how some on the far political left complain about the "rich doctors" who make over six figures. However, they're extremely quiet about Hollywood movie stars who make $10M+. Who adds more value to society? Gee, let's think about this one for a second
I grew up in the medical profession so I've seen a few things and doctors don't make what people think they do, especially if the malprac insurance is high for that state. Once you clear the insurance, office costs if you have them, other expenses and continuing education, taxes, fees and so on, often they don't take home all that much.
I worked in and out of Aspen for seven years which is hollywood in the mountains. I knew many, many celebs and talked to them as well at length. Many are great people, others are a bit out of it. I nearly bust a gut sometimes hearing them talk about the "little people" and the marxist and green agenda they want imposed on us, yet I just picked them up off a Gulfstream V private jet and I'm taking them to a massive house rental that is $25000 a night.
"Do as I say, not as I do" is the modus operandi of these folks.
My apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere in this forum. But I thought it worthy to quote Mr Buffet.
“I've worked in an economy that rewards someone who saves the lives of others on a battlefield with a medal, rewards a great teacher with thank-you notes from parents, but rewards those who can detect the mispricing of securities with sums reaching into the billions,” Mr. Buffett said in an open letter Wednesday.
"In short, fate's distribution of long straws is wildly capricious.”
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