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Ah, but what of us who love learning but hate being dictated what we learn?
I may have barely passed high school due to lack of showing up except for tests, but in my spare time I studied classical Latin for the hell of it (and saw why it died so MANY CASES!), read voraciously (a habit i keep to this day), studied botany, studied art, studied medicine (my eventual field), physics, and linguistics also just for the hell of it. I've read everything from Aristotle to Zoroaster.
Incidentally when I was given the choice of what I wanted to study for "real" in college I was in the top of my class and won many merit scholarships. I never took the SAT's (seemed like a waste of time and money-I was right) and instead used the 24 credit hours I got over two days via CLEP tests in the Army to qualify as a transfer student.
Schools will never matter to people like me because its boring, trite, and compulsory, the worst environment for learning.
Kreutz,
If you are one of the very rare genius autodidacts who just figure out what to read on their own and give themselves this amazingly eclectic education, kudos to you, let me take the bow and ooze humility at your feet.
However, I have a feeling that if you really were this kind of amazingly educated autodidact you would be able to figure out that the vast majority of educated people do not end up educated this way. They don't just pick up the right books on their own and give themselves a superb education.
Instead, they are guided along the way by some kind of education system - tutors in private (as in the case of the rich) or the school. It is as simple as that. The rest remain pretty much uneducated, ignorant, narrow-minded, obtuse, just interested in making a buck (usually quick) - and thinking that they already know everything there is to know or is worth knowing.
[Quote=Bhaalspawn] Consider this. Two centuries ago children were able to learn to read, write, and do arithmetic in one room school houses without the help of computers or fancy textbooks, etc. Today children have far, far more resources, including professionally-trained teachers.
The schools and the teachers are not the root cause of the problem. The problem is that many parents are simply not raising their children properly, either because they lack the financial and/or mental means to do so or they simply do not care.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Two centuries ago, Lord help you if your teacher sent a note home to your parents. They could also expel you. Today it takes an act of God to expel a child. When parents demand that children do thier work and respect their teachers, we can accomplish a lot. Today, kids have too many rights.
Two centuries ago, a teacher could have gotten a group of students started on their work and....gasp....they'd actually keep doing it WITHOUT her hovering while she got the next group working on what they needed to work on. Today, we spend too much time making sure kids are doing what we told them to do. I'd take the one room school house 200 years ago over what I faced in the charter school I worked in any day of the week. Today, kids expect to be entertained and be catered to. They and their parents don't think teachers deserve respect until they earn it (but the parents and the students do ).
Two centuries ago? Two centuries ago they used corporal punishment to get the kids to behave in school and I highly doubt the parents had either the time, the education or the inclination to involve themselves in their child's schooling to anywhere near the involvement of parents today.
[Quote=Bhaalspawn] Consider this. Two centuries ago children were able to learn to read, write, and do arithmetic in one room school houses without the help of computers or fancy textbooks, etc. Today children have far, far more resources, including professionally-trained teachers.
The schools and the teachers are not the root cause of the problem. The problem is that many parents are simply not raising their children properly, either because they lack the financial and/or mental means to do so or they simply do not care.
Two centuries ago? Two centuries ago they used corporal punishment to get the kids to behave in school and I highly doubt the parents had either the time, the education or the inclination to involve themselves in their child's schooling to anywhere near the involvement of parents today. [/quote]
I'm not talking about parental involvement. I'm talking about the fact dad or mom would KILL you for making them look bad if the teacher had to come talk to them. That gave the teacher power. Plus the teacher could use corporal punishment as well.
You know, beating our kids works. Why'd we ever stop?
If you are one of the very rare genius autodidacts who just figure out what to read on their own and give themselves this amazingly eclectic education, kudos to you, let me take the bow and ooze humility at your feet.
However, I have a feeling that if you really were this kind of amazingly educated autodidact you would be able to figure out that the vast majority of educated people do not end up educated this way. They don't just pick up the right books on their own and give themselves a superb education.
Instead, they are guided along the way by some kind of education system - tutors in private (as in the case of the rich) or the school. It is as simple as that. The rest remain pretty much uneducated, ignorant, narrow-minded, obtuse, just interested in making a buck (usually quick) - and thinking that they already know everything there is to know or is worth knowing.
I dont think there is anything "rare" about it, I just think if you allow people the freedom to study what they want, they will, be it one subject (why force the kid obsessed with cars to read Oscar Wilde? Let him focus on engineering) or cast a wider net.
Yes I tried to give myself what would have been called a classical education up until the 20th century, but that was mostly motivated by my love of reading and learning. Just because someone has not had or is not interested in formal education they are not destined to be, "uneducated, ignorant, narrow-minded, obtuse, just interested in making a buck", that's a pretty snobbish view to take of people.
Degrees do not guarantee intelligence (on the contrary standardized testing has reduced intellect into rote memorization but I digress).
Formal education certainly provides no protection from a desire to "make a buck (usually quick)-I'd bet every penny I own that each director and executive of Lehmen Brothers, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and the like have a very nice ivory league degree; possibly more than one.
I'd certainly trust the guy who doodled during history class to sketch a kitchen redesign for my home.
I wouldnt trust the ivory league banker to do anything but rob me blind (funny story-they did rob us all blind). Wonderful ethics they must teach at Wharton. Well worth the tuition I'm sure.
I dont think there is anything "rare" about it, I just think if you allow people the freedom to study what they want, they will, be it one subject (why force the kid obsessed with cars to read Oscar Wilde? Let him focus on engineering) or cast a wider net.
Yes I tried to give myself what would have been called a classical education up until the 20th century, but that was mostly motivated by my love of reading and learning. Just because someone has not had or is not interested in formal education they are not destined to be, "uneducated, ignorant, narrow-minded, obtuse, just interested in making a buck", that's a pretty snobbish view to take of people.
Degrees do not guarantee intelligence (on the contrary standardized testing has reduced intellect into rote memorization but I digress).
Formal education certainly provides no protection from a desire to "make a buck (usually quick)-I'd bet every penny I own that each director and executive of Lehmen Brothers, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and the like have a very nice ivory league degree; possibly more than one.
I'd certainly trust the guy who doodled during history class to sketch a kitchen redesign for my home.
I wouldnt trust the ivory league banker to do anything but rob me blind (funny story-they did rob us all blind). Wonderful ethics they must teach at Wharton. Well worth the tuition I'm sure.
Kreutz,
Trust me, I will not disagree with you about the ethics of the Goldman boys and the like; but I am afraid you insist on missing my point.
You said you gave yourself a very good, well-rounded, classical education. I applauded you for that and I responded that most people would not be able to do this.
I am quite sure that your kitchen guy is a very nice guy who can design a H of a kitchen for you; but what does this have to do with being the well-rounded, educated person you said you became by self-teaching?
A guy who designs nice kitchens and that's it is a ...well...guy who designs nice kitchens. No. Make it "nice guy who designs nice kitchens".
But not educated.
I also didn't say that education should come without ethics.
Unfortunately, we live in an era obssessed with high IQ-s and completely disinterested in EQ-s (call it "emotional/ethical" quotient if you will).
But that is a completely different story.
However, if you need to get together for a session of Goldman boys hating - give me a buzz.
On the issue of votes: politicians (state, local, federal) are part of the problem and also need to be part of the solution. Many problems, both large and small, have their roots made in policies mandated by people far removed from the classroom.
I doubt many politicians are worried about the votes of uneducated parents; a parent who isn't involved or supported in their child's education probably isn't an active and engaged citizen who dutifully heads off to the polling station each November, either. But for those of us who DO vote, and the politicians who govern, we all need to be aware that our choices will eventually impact our country's education.
Oh yes politicans are interested in votes from these people. I believe during a recent election people like this were put in vans and buses and taken to polling stations.
Two centuries ago? Two centuries ago they used corporal punishment to get the kids to behave in school and I highly doubt the parents had either the time, the education or the inclination to involve themselves in their child's schooling to anywhere near the involvement of parents today.
I'm not talking about parental involvement. I'm talking about the fact dad or mom would KILL you for making them look bad if the teacher had to come talk to them. That gave the teacher power. Plus the teacher could use corporal punishment as well.
You know, beating our kids works. Why'd we ever stop?
Oh, excuse me. I thought you wanted respect. Now that I realize it is power you want, your posts make perfect sense.
The teacher's union, NEA is the problem. Bad teachers keep their jobs.
I've seen a LOT more bad parents than I have bad parents. Bad school board members, too. I know there are some problem teachers out there, but the idea that somehow getting rid of unions is going to fix things is unrealistic at best. Even the best teachers can only do so much when faced with kids who are coming to school unprepared to learn. Besides, I think that bad teachers are a small minority, and that even if they are out there, a student is vastly more likely to encounter good to great teachers. One bad teacher isn't enough to destroy an education.
Obviously I'd prefer the best teachers possible, of course, and do think that teachers have an enormous role in a child's education. It's unrealistic to think that they can perform miracles, though, or that simply getting rid of poor teachers is going to fix the big problems.
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