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Too bad they're not opening up 20,000 jobs so that guys like MSChemist and tens of thousands of disgruntled postdocs could find career-building jobs. Here's another link you might find amusing:
Numbers can be bended into however you want. Statistics is exactly that; not absolute. Think about it for a second. The higher you go up in education you'll see a correlation of people that work "harder".
Take your number 1 and number 2 example for instance. Obviously someone that can't even complete a hs diploma isn't gonna give a second about their future. The same application can be stated about hs graduates. There are a proportional amount of hs graduates that lack the drive and aptitude to make the big bucks.
Think about it this way. The four years you spent in college could have been invested into working full-time and saving up money. Heck, $8 an hour working full-time will yield you $16,640 a year. Multiply that number by 4 years and you get $66,560.
In essence, the average hs grad could very well have at least a $66,560 positive as opposed to college grad who incurred opportunity cost from not working.
The only college student not working is the college grad who has $$$ for parents. I worked throughout college and averaged $18k/year.
There are two epic fails here. 1. an inability to post links on a forum. 2. Those lay offs were in sales/marketing, not research. Novartis is investing those monies into R&D.
I think Tony Robbins, Dr. Phil, and Dr. Laura said similar comments. It's easy to be an armchair critic isn't it?
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Originally Posted by cpg35223
Well, the first thing's first. The need for college degrees has been waaaaaaay oversold. What matters is salable skills, the willingness to work hard, the willingness to learn and improve, etc. etc.
That being said, I tend to look askance at people who say, "Why I have a masters degree, I've been out in the work force for ten years, and I'll still earning barely above minimum wage. It must be the fault of the economy/my degree/the world in general."
To that I say "Baloney."
While I agree that nobody is handing out jobs at the door as you exit the graduation ceremony, particularly in this economy, I've found that the people who pay attention to their employability are the ones who ultimately make it. Not only are they the ones who get the jobs in the first place, but they're also the ones who get promoted, the ones who don't get laid off, and the ones whom the headhunters call. And people who find themselves in the backwaters of the employment world aren't there because of the degree they received, but because they did not make smart decisions after graduation. Show me a Ph.D. who is pushing a broom somewhere, and I'll show you someone who can't get it together in their lives. That's not my fault, and it's certainly not society's.
In that sense, a degree is merely a piece of paper. It's what you do with your degree and your education that matter once the last note of Pomp and Circumstances fades into the auditorium walls. Mind you, I earned my degree in English--not exactly as marketable as electrical engineering. What's more, I got my first job in the teeth of an impressive economic downturn, too. Now, at 48, I am semi-retired and still earning excellent money as a consultant, and I spend a great deal of time telling MBAs what to do. So, if you are one of those people who bemoan the lack of a marketable degree, then I submit the following questions to you:
1) What is your value to your current or prospective employer? Do you make a positive impact on the bottom line? If you cannot enunciate how you help your employer make money (Or at the very least, how you keep them from losing money) at the drop of a hat, then you are probably sucking money and oxygen out of the place without even realizing it. That means you should be thinking how you can really contribute.
2) Are you the consummate professional in how you dress and how you conduct yourself? Now this is where the nitwits will say, "You shouldn't be judged on how you dress. Why that's just shallow." Guess what? First impressions count. And the first time you meet someone new, you can either start the relationship at a -5 because you dress like a slob or a +3 because you dress like you care. At some level, you're judged in the dating world, the social world, and just about every other sphere of life on how well you take care of yourself. So if you don't respect yourself enough to not dress as if you shop exclusively at thrift stores, then don't expect to be invited to the next client meeting.
Mind you, that doesn't even mean wearing the most expensive thing off the rack. Just dress like you give a rip, okay? The best bit of advice I ever received was, "Forget how relaxed the dress code is, because dressing casually is for suckers. Instead, dress as if you might be called into a meeting at any minute. Because, chances are that you will."
3) When it comes to learning, did you consider the graduation ceremony the finish line? I'm amazed at the number of people who simply do the job they were hired to do, and never bother doing any outside reading, never scan the pages of business publications, never interpolate what's coming up in the business world, and never do one iota more than what's asked of them. If you have ever uttered the words, "That's not in my job description," even under your breath, then you are one of these people. Trust me, your days are numbered.
4) Turn lemons into lemonade. Hey, if you're a humanities major, then you have an incredibly valuable skill. You should be able to take gobs of abstract information from all kinds of sources and synthesize it into patterns and coherent themes. That's an extraordinarily rare gift, one I rely on with my clients every day. Am I putting my study of Jonathan Swift to work? No. But I'm putting the ability to think critically to work with every proposal I read and write--something that engineers and computer programmers seem to lack.
5) Life is business. The most successful musicians, artists, and writers were also really good businessmen and women. Self-promotion is not a shameful thing. Network. Attend functions. Get a decent haircut. Learn some basic social skills. Write thank-you notes. Make friends outside of the people you hung with in college. And stop looking down on people who are successful in their careers as philistines just because they don't have the same interests as you do.
6) Everybody is interesting. All businesses are interesting. Drill that in your head, and you'll be surprised how many doors open for you in life.
There are two epic fails here. 1. an inability to post links on a forum. 2. Those lay offs were in sales/marketing, not research. Novartis is investing those monies into R&D.
really I don't see anything in the article anything about sales and marketing staff though I found this one from 2 years ago
In anycase that's a drop in the bucket. I liked that NPR show Bhaalspawn posted. Again 60% of Ph. D's pick other as in little or nothing to do with science for a job. You really would have to be almost insane to go for a science degree nowadays unless you are sure you are going to med, pharm, or dental school.
It doesn't. There are other articles on the net referring to the lay offs. It's sales. This I know.
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In anycase that's a drop in the bucket. I liked that NPR show Bhaalspawn posted. Again 60% of Ph. D's pick other as in little or nothing to do with science for a job. You really would have to be almost insane to go for a science degree nowadays unless you are sure you are going to med, pharm, or dental school.
First off, what he posted is from 1996 or at least that's what it states. I pretty much ignored it because I don't know what to do with a piece from '96.
I frequently see people post in this forum about how "worthless" they think college degrees are. I'm not sure what to make of it. Are these those who have a degree and can't land a job? Are they those without a degree and are envious of those who do? Are they in an occupational field where they hope to suppress competition?
My college degrees were the best investment my family and I ever made. I earn six figures a year and absolutely love what I do. Feel free to disregard my personal opinion though if you want. What you shouldn't disregard are government statistics. They show us that:
1. A high school drop out earns much less than a high school graduate.
2. The average college graduate with a BA or BS degree earns more than a high school graduate.
3. The average college graduate with an MS or MA earns more than a graduate with a BS degree.
4. The average college graduate with a professional degree earns more than than a graduate with an MS degree.
5. PhD's earn less than those with professional degrees, but more than those with MS degrees.
There are always individuals that do worse than average, but they are not typical. I see nothing wrong with those who don't want a degree learning a trade instead. However, do not make the mistake of thinking for one minute that everyone is necessarily cut out to be a plumber, electrician, machinist, or welder. Many people lack the internal skills to succeed in these areas as well. Trade school is not a godsend either.
I would think it would fit in the bold category. A bigger percentage of graduates of the past couple years have been getting hammered.
It doesn't. There are other articles on the net referring to the lay offs. It's sales. This I know.
First off, what he posted is from 1996 or at least that's what it states. I pretty much ignored it because I don't know what to do with a piece from '96.
I listened to it too.
Well from what I've seen little has changed. I see Ph. D's wasting away in post-docs desperate to get anything to the point where they remove the Ph. D from their resume. That to me is the ultimate shame, to work so hard for a degree and be forced the hide it like it is some sort of obscene tattoo.
That's why I did not bother to go for the Ph. D despite being encouraged and originally entering my grad program as a Ph. D candidate.
The MS hasn't done much for me either nor the BSc really. I have a job but its just as sucky [possibly suckier] as a job I could have worked up to starting from high school.
My brother suggested I take the Chicago Police Exam because even they start higher than chemistry grads and have full benefits.
Until the equation changes a science degree is just a complete and total waste unless used to get into professional school.
I have a job a trained monkey could do and I work with someone with a MBA, someone with a MSW, someone with a literature degree from a Big Ten school, and several other college graduates, and to get into management you could probably get away with a GED. My wife has an humanities degree that's pretty much unusable. It seems anymore that college is more or less a waste.
Same here. I'm an 8th grade drop out and working with a lot of very educated people without and ounce of knowledge.
Sometimes people are stupid no matter what they learn.
busta
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