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Old 10-27-2010, 09:03 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,423,185 times
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I see so many threads that are always like, "oh, I didn't make it to the corner office in the business world; therefore, school never pays off." Please. Of course politics and networking are important in the business world, but there is plenty of payoff if you're qualified to get a job and do well at it. Plenty of people do very well.

I studied hard and made myself well-qualified for certain jobs in corporate America. It's no guarantee of success, and I've been laid off before. But I've also been nimble, hard-working, and lucky, and I'm currently making six figures with my latest employer - and I'm only a senior analyst, not some bigwig who has made it high up the food chain. There are plenty of people like me, and we wouldn't have these incomes if we had just blown off our educations.

People can make their own choices, but generally when you say, "I give up; nothing's ever going to work", then guess what.... it's a given that nothing will ever work out for you.
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:40 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,185,650 times
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There can only be so many plumbers and mechanics too. For many people that are academically advanced, doing a menial job day in and day out would be frustrating. You need to have the right fit for the right person. Many people could NEVER spend a day pushing a button on an assembly line without going crazy.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,093,243 times
Reputation: 9270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svatos View Post
Most people who've spent even a marginal amount of time in the business world realize that nepotism and paying out/returning favors trump academic credentials. Now, being in one of the worst economies in the past couple decades, "who you know" seems to be playing a much bigger role than ever in who's getting the jobs. So why is it that most people push their kids to do well academically? Shouldn't they instead push them to build skills in social networking and office politics?

This is coming from someone who has always strived to do well in high school and in college, and did exactly that. But after only a few years in the post-college business world, I've come to realize that all my hard work in school was done in vain. A lot of people I work with never went to college. Most of them are just intellectually average, but are doing as well as me or, in some cases, doing better than me. This is not about me tooting my own horn. It is about me realizing that working hard in school seems to have little pay off once you enter the business world.

So why do we all have the delusion that if we push ourselves or our kids to do well in school, it will be rewarded later on in life? This obviously does not seem to be the case for a lot of us these days.
In many fields, I think this post is complete BS. In the software business, talent wins almost all the time. Talent is not perfectly correlated with academic performance, but technical people don't advance because of nepotism and returning favors.

That hard work in school was not in vain. First of all you know what hard work is. If you had been a slacker, do you really think you would have started your career so strongly? I can promise that if there is an entry level job opening, with five candidates, academic performance will be an important factor. Not the only one. But it is important. It is a rare person who can demonstrate outstanding capability if their GPA is 2.0.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:47 AM
 
219 posts, read 561,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
In many fields, I think this post is complete BS. In the software business, talent wins almost all the time. Talent is not perfectly correlated with academic performance, but technical people don't advance because of nepotism and returning favors.

That hard work in school was not in vain. First of all you know what hard work is. If you had been a slacker, do you really think you would have started your career so strongly? I can promise that if there is an entry level job opening, with five candidates, academic performance will be an important factor. Not the only one. But it is important. It is a rare person who can demonstrate outstanding capability if their GPA is 2.0.
I guess it's just frustration in my current role. When I started, I was your typical gitty fresh-faced, college grad wanting to make a difference. At first, I was always throwing out suggestions and ideas for improvement. They were usually received with praise, but were never implemented. This begain taking a toll on me. I thought why should I keep trying so hard when I'm just ignored.

Then I see some people getting promotions who screw up over and over again. And instead of confronting those people who screw up continuously, my boss spends most of our time on conference calls developing ideas as to how we can avoid being blamed for all these errors. On top of that, the idiots that keep screwing up obviously only want the position for status. When they first got the promotion, they hired on a bunch of their friends and family (who hardly spoke English) and who almost ruined our company's reputation because of their stupidity and ignorance to detail.

So, yes, I've become jaded. Is this how all companies in America operate? Because I see these kinds of complaints all the time. Quite frankly, I don't want to try anymore. I feel like I'm better off just doing the minimum just to get by. Besides, when I eventually quit, my boss is likely going to give the same recommendation compared to if I had busted my *ss the whole time.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,093,243 times
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Svatos - What field are you in? And what kind of company do you work for today? Is it the same company have been since you graduated from college? How many years past college?

Individual company culture can vary widely. Perhaps at your company, relationships are far more valuable than skill. I don't doubt that exists - but if it does I suggest you plan for a job change whenever it makes sense. Do not worry too much about a recommendation from your current boss. Most companies today do not allow their managers to give any kind of endorsement to departing employees because they incur legal risk if the feedback is negative.

Besides, you won't list your boss as a reference while you are looking for a job, will you?

A high performance company will favor skill over politics. It is always good to relate well to your co-workers and management. It never helps to have enemies. But if you are a salesman, and you sell a lot, you will be rewarded. If you are an engineer, and design products or processes that save money or make money, your company will want you and reward you.

If you are not perceived as good enough to earn that recognition, either you aren't as good as you think you are, or your company doesn't care (or both). It sounds to me though that the culture of your company is ingrained and not good.

In today's economy, most companies cannot afford to keep employees that are mediocre.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:28 AM
 
219 posts, read 561,987 times
Reputation: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Svatos - What field are you in? And what kind of company do you work for today? Is it the same company have been since you graduated from college? How many years past college?

Individual company culture can vary widely. Perhaps at your company, relationships are far more valuable than skill. I don't doubt that exists - but if it does I suggest you plan for a job change whenever it makes sense. Do not worry too much about a recommendation from your current boss. Most companies today do not allow their managers to give any kind of endorsement to departing employees because they incur legal risk if the feedback is negative.

Besides, you won't list your boss as a reference while you are looking for a job, will you?

A high performance company will favor skill over politics. It is always good to relate well to your co-workers and management. It never helps to have enemies. But if you are a salesman, and you sell a lot, you will be rewarded. If you are an engineer, and design products or processes that save money or make money, your company will want you and reward you.

If you are not perceived as good enough to earn that recognition, either you aren't as good as you think you are, or your company doesn't care (or both). It sounds to me though that the culture of your company is ingrained and not good.

In today's economy, most companies cannot afford to keep employees that are mediocre.
I'm in the logistics field. I work for a SMALL company (about 25 employees maybe). I started with this company straight out of college a little over two years ago. I accepted the position out of desperation for a job. I never planned on staying with them for very long, but have unfortunately managed to settle into a comfort zone.

I realize I have a lot to learn about the field still, so this is not about me having a big ego. Am I good at what I currently do? Yes, I believe so because I've been praised on numerous occassions. I think this is more or less the company doesn't care until they are forced to care. I've had a couple other job offers since I started, and that got my current employer into high gear as far as rewarding me for my work and retaining my services.

I think with my current employer, it's more about relationships than it is performance. My employer has been servicing our client for 10+ years now, so I think it boils down to complacency for both parties. My company doesn't feel the need to provide superb service and our client does not feel the need to risk finding another vendor to provide the same services we provide. So basically, neither company cares as long as we're getting paid and they're getting sufficient service. It's a crappy situation for someone who has high ambitions and intelligence.
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:49 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,424,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
...and lucky, and I'm currently making six figures with my latest employer...
Where you live, you'd better.

In such places, "6 figures" doesn't say much; and below, it spells disaster.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,423,185 times
Reputation: 14266
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Where you live, you'd better.

In such places, "6 figures" doesn't say much; and below, it spells disaster.
I'm not a hedge fund manager, but I do quite comfortably well. If I was back in the Midwest, I'd probably be making somewhere around $85-90K.

But that's not the point anyway. The point is that you generally don't get anywhere even near such a living standard by slacking off in school and ending up on night shift at the local Burger King. Most people are not Bill Gates.
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
Reputation: 36643
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Not putting down college grads. Focus on academics, to the exclusion of all else is not healthy and is not necessarily useful.
People can focus on whatever they want, but NOT when they are in school. The business of schools (primary, secondary and college) is ACADEMICS.
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Old 10-31-2010, 01:06 PM
 
143 posts, read 377,576 times
Reputation: 224
College degrees are not a guarantee to good jobs, nor does it mean automatic advancement over nondegreed persons. What it does do is give you a legs up in job searching, help you with advancement once you get into a company----that is, *IF* you did well in college, perhaps did internships etc.

Just the act of going to college confers nothing. However, being a successful college graduate tells employer that you have achieved something, and that you are trained to perform at a certain level, or qualified for certain, technical positions. Obviously, academics for the business world means less than academics for software engineering, or for law/med school wannabes. But a successful college career will give you a leg up as compared to someone who never went to college and/or who spent most of their days flipping burgers.

What the college degree is NOT, is an automatic bypass of those who did not go to college. There are plenty of smart people who never went to school, and you will find, in life, there are people who are gifted and don't need the 'extra help' that you acquired to get ahead.

I am in med school and I had to work hard to get in. I know plenty of people who did not work as hard and got in with far less effort. It's not fair, but I have no control over my innate ability. The only control I have is my educational level. Because I am not as intelligent as my fellow med school colleagues, I have to work twice as hard. Same goes for your post-college experience. Perhaps your colleague have more 'emotional' IQ, perhaps they have been at their job longer. For whatever reason, they were luckier than others. But for every noncollege grad that got into that job, think about how many didn't get it because they weren't 'gifted' in that way. Life is a gamble. There are not guarantees. College increases your options, it doesn't negate the risks.
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