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If you took grades, completely, away, I doubt the average student would be, intrinsically, motivated to learn calculus. This has nothing to do with grades. It has to do with seeing value in what is being learned. I would think that kids who value grades would be more inclined to see value in calculus than kids who do not value grades. Many kids, at my school, take AP classes because they are graded on a 5 point scale and they can boost their GPA's.
Seriously, if you'd taken away grades, I never would have learned calculas. I HATED algebra and trig. I took them because I had to. I worked at them because I would get my butt kicked if I didn't pass. I LOVED calculus and differential equations but I never would have gotten that high in math if they'd left it to me and my intrinsic motivation. In high school, I thought I wanted to be a secretary. Fortunately, the rules said I still had to take math and pass.
You are not seeing the issue. The issue is that what we teach in school isn't what kids are, intrinsically, motivated to learn. If it were, we wouldn't need schools. We need them BECAUSE kids are not inclined to learn the things we teach in them without them. What kids, and just about anyone for that matter, choose to learn is, usually, something with a short pay back period. Much of what is taught in school isn't of value until years later when combined with other things learned in school. It comes as no surprise to me that kids see little value in it.
Seriously, I didn't see the value of what was taught to me in grade school until I was in college. Until then, it looked like learning just to learn with no purpose or real reward for doing so. Kind of a waste of time and effort. It's only when you reach higher levels that you see why they taught you what they did when you were young. Kids don't appreciate what they are being taught because they can't see the value yet.
i may be wrong about this but i suspect that you are not really using the part of education that you did not enjoy or like.
if one hated algebra, trigonometry, geometry or calculus; it is more likely one will never enter a field that will utilize it.
also, if one hates the subjects, they usually did not understand it correctly either.
this is why i think primary education should be compulsory but not high school for everyone unless they are preparing for college and even then, the courses should fit their choice of future profession. there is no sane reason that a psychologist needs to learn trig or calculus. they will never use it and probably never understood it anyways but worked at it enough to pass.
i may be wrong about this but i suspect that you are not really using the part of education that you did not enjoy or like.
if one hated algebra, trigonometry, geometry or calculus; it is more likely one will never enter a field that will utilize it.
also, if one hates the subjects, they usually did not understand it correctly either.
this is why i think primary education should be compulsory but not high school for everyone unless they are preparing for college and even then, the courses should fit their choice of future profession. there is no sane reason that a psychologist needs to learn trig or calculus. they will never use it and probably never understood it anyways but worked at it enough to pass.
Well, you're going to have to change society's mind. Society has determined that math through algebra and science through chemistry is useful to society. The problem with letting kids pick what they take is they're kids and some will, simply, choose the easy way out. Decisions made at 15 shouldn't beocome burdens for the rest of your life.
I wouldn't have taken algebra except the made me. Turns out I really like math. I just had to get to calculus to find math I liked but where would I be if they never made me take algebra? I never would have gotten to calculus.
I'm really good at algerba now because I use it. Back then I was just doing problems in a book. Once I found a use for it, I mastered it in no time.
The problem is you don't know what a child will need as an adult until they are an adult. We can't pigeon hole them at the age of 15. If someone had done that to me, I would never have become an engineer. There was NOTHING about me that even hinted I'd go that direction when I was 15. I remember taking a battery of tests early in high school. My two top carreer options were forest ranger and dental hygienist. With no one, including myself, realizing where I was headed, do you really think the decision should have been in my hands as to what classes I should have taken? I don't.
So I took biology and never used it. So what? Far better than never taking it and having needed it. The lesser of the evils is to offer everything to all students so they're prepared no matter what direction they take as adults. So, yes, the psychologist needs to take algebra because we don't know he will be a psychologist until he gets there. If we had a crystal ball and could predict the future, we could let kids opt out of classes they won't need but we don't so we can't. Letting a 15 year old opt out of math might mean he's opting out of the career choice that will be right for him in 10 years.
Well, you're going to have to change society's mind. Society has determined that math through algebra and science through chemistry is useful to society. The problem with letting kids pick what they take is they're kids and some will, simply, choose the easy way out. Decisions made at 15 shouldn't beocome burdens for the rest of your life.
I wouldn't have taken algebra except the made me. Turns out I really like math. I just had to get to calculus to find math I liked but where would I be if they never made me take algebra? I never would have gotten to calculus.
I'm really good at algerba now because I use it. Back then I was just doing problems in a book. Once I found a use for it, I mastered it in no time.
The problem is you don't know what a child will need as an adult until they are an adult. We can't pigeon hole them at the age of 15. If someone had done that to me, I would never have become an engineer. There was NOTHING about me that even hinted I'd go that direction when I was 15. I remember taking a battery of tests early in high school. My two top carreer options were forest ranger and dental hygienist. With no one, including myself, realizing where I was headed, do you really think the decision should have been in my hands as to what classes I should have taken? I don't.
So I took biology and never used it. So what? Far better than never taking it and having needed it. The lesser of the evils is to offer everything to all students so they're prepared no matter what direction they take as adults. So, yes, the psychologist needs to take algebra because we don't know he will be a psychologist until he gets there. If we had a crystal ball and could predict the future, we could let kids opt out of classes they won't need but we don't so we can't. Letting a 15 year old opt out of math might mean he's opting out of the career choice that will be right for him in 10 years.
this post is no indication that you are actually using higher math in your daily life or profession. i suspect you aren't. it doesn't matter if you like it because there are those who will be so proficient at it that it will have a real use for it in the world. it means nothing that one looks back on hindsight that they like something. education is for a purpose, not an open-ended hobby.
i never said kids should be able to opt out of basic education but a kid will know by middle school what they are interested in or what they are stronger at. it's not true that the further you go in high school, you'll magically have a eureka moment. one's individual capacity and interests will determine what one will end up doing.
no, science and higher math is not useful to everyone in society. i also never said that it shouldn't be offered but that it's not needed or appropriate for everyone.
even by middle school, one is exposed to algebra and one can glean if they want to pursue it.
as i said, there are tons of people out there that are unskilled because they did not get vocational training but muddled through high school with subject matter that has no relevance to what they are doing today. basically, they aren't really educated at all except for perhaps the elementary education they recieved.
as i said, there are tons of people out there that are unskilled because they did not get vocational training but muddled through high school with subject matter that has no relevance to what they are doing today. basically, they aren't really educated at all except for perhaps the elementary education they recieved.
I agree. At one point HS had two tracks and in junior year you could pick vocational or academic. Now the kids are all pushed to academic and to go vocational is only available in senior year (in my school district) and only after the parents have several meetings with the counselors/principle/vice principle/district people.
Yes, it does seem that the push to educate is more like a herd all the students with little to no regard to their aptitude or desires.
this post is no indication that you are actually using higher math in your daily life or profession. i suspect you aren't. it doesn't matter if you like it because there are those who will be so proficient at it that it will have a real use for it in the world. it means nothing that one looks back on hindsight that they like something. education is for a purpose, not an open-ended hobby.
i never said kids should be able to opt out of basic education but a kid will know by middle school what they are interested in or what they are stronger at. it's not true that the further you go in high school, you'll magically have a eureka moment. one's individual capacity and interests will determine what one will end up doing.
no, science and higher math is not useful to everyone in society. i also never said that it shouldn't be offered but that it's not needed or appropriate for everyone.
even by middle school, one is exposed to algebra and one can glean if they want to pursue it.
as i said, there are tons of people out there that are unskilled because they did not get vocational training but muddled through high school with subject matter that has no relevance to what they are doing today. basically, they aren't really educated at all except for perhaps the elementary education they recieved.
You don't think engineers use higher math???? You don't think they use the brain they develop while learning higher math????
YOU don't know what engineers do .
I use the logic I learned in learning all that higher math every day. All that higher math changed the way I think. I use the brain I grew learning all that higher math every single day. Even teaching chemistry. I understand things on a different level because of all of those higher level classes (not just math). That makes a difference.
It's not what you learn in school that matters. It's who you become because of school that matters. Most of us use about 5% of WHAT we were taught but we use the brains we developed in getting that education every single day of our lives.
I'm sorry but the time to decide that someone belongs on the vocational track is AFTER they've tried the traditional track. Send them to vocational school instead of college but don't assume when they are 15 that they don't have what it takes to go to college. Seriously, they would have sent me to vocational school in high school had that been an option. I graduated with a 1.67 GPA. Turns out my problem was I hadn't gotten to a high enough level to be engaged. Once I hit calculus, organic chemistry and physics, I was home and knew it. I'm glad no one decided when I was 15 what I should be and I will not decide for my kids. They'll take everything. They'll be good at some things and not at others and when the time comes for them to pick a career, we'll decide what type of training they need. You act like if we don't give these kids vocational training in high school they can never get vocational training. That is not true. There are plenty of outfits offering vocational training for those who don't want to go to college. There are community colleges offering certificate programs for non degree bound students.
While I do think we should have voc-ed in high schol for those kids who refuse or incapable of learning what is taught in high school, I think we should try to teach them first. If they fail, then we go with plan B. We should not simply decide a student belongs on plan B at 15. THAT can become a self fulfilling prophecy. I just don't think we should be nailing kids in boxes at 15 and saying this is all you can do. Let them try first.
I would support vocational training for 12th graders who have already tried and been unsuccessful but you never know what a child may be successful at until they try. I have two kids in my chemistry classes right now who do next to nothing but seem to understand things their classmates do not. Your plan would voc-ed track them right now even though there is something deeper there. I don't know how to coax it out but I see it. I hope, someday, it comes out. I was that kid in 10th grade. I was in college before I bloomed. I would hate to think they'd write me off in high school. I'm glad they didn't. No one stuck me in an alternative track so I floundered until I found my way. My life would have been very different if someone had put me in an alternative track because they thought I was too limted to go farther. Very different indeed.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-11-2010 at 10:39 AM..
Just wanted to add that I do not believe that all students are college bound. I just believe the time to decide they are not is AFTER they've tried that route. THEN we should have an alternative plan open to them.
We don't have crystal balls. We don't know what the future holds. To not teach a child algebra because we think they're going to be a psychologist would be wrong because we don't know they will become a psychologist until they do.
In high school, I said I wanted to be a physical therapist. I didn't need math, english, chemistry or history for that. Should I have been excused from taking those classes because I wouldn't need them for that career path? I don't think so.
A big problem is that so many teachers have a background in "Education" rather than in the subject they "teach". In actuality their knowledge of the subject goes no deeper than the textbook. I doesn't take long for students to realize this and that the teacher only wants them to pass the test not learn about the subject. I think this leads to a lot of drop outs who understand that school is not about them.
A big problem is that so many teachers have a background in "Education" rather than in the subject they "teach". In actuality their knowledge of the subject goes no deeper than the textbook. I doesn't take long for students to realize this and that the teacher only wants them to pass the test not learn about the subject. I think this leads to a lot of drop outs who understand that school is not about them.
You know, this may be why I didn't do well in school until college. In college, my professors were experts. They recognized a higher level question when they heard it. I didn't get brushed off. They got that often the source of my confusion was that I was going beyond the material being taught. I see that in three of my students right now. Fortunately, I have the background to answer their questions. I don't think any of them is at risk of dropping out though. You are talking higher performing students when you're talking students who ask questions ed majors may not be able to answer. While they may conclude the teacher doesn't know their material, they're not likely to quit.
A big problem is that so many teachers have a background in "Education" rather than in the subject they "teach". In actuality their knowledge of the subject goes no deeper than the textbook. I doesn't take long for students to realize this and that the teacher only wants them to pass the test not learn about the subject. I think this leads to a lot of drop outs who understand that school is not about them.
I agree. In HS my son had 2 second career teachers.
Both his economics teacher (former wall street guy & small business owner) and a math teacher (former engineer for Motorola) both put so much real life into the subjects and made them meaningful and actually taught differently and treated the kids differently.
I do think it was that real life experience that made the difference.
I only hope that I can do the same..software engineer here going through a program now in hopes of teaching middle school math.
Every year I imagine its gets tougher to teach with more social and tech distractions in middle and high school plus so many kids with ADD, ADHD, Asburgers and Autism being diagnosed in elementary school. Both of my kids have alot of friends on Ritalin or Adderall. Those medicines taken before school in the mornings change the kids emotionally, until at least after lunch and the meds wear off. I live in the suburbs of Wilmington, Delaware and Wilmington doesn't have its own school district so kids are bussed out of the city to the schools, some as much as 45 minutes, plus school lunch is the best meal some of these kids get, if not the only meal.
Writing in cursive is ridiculous and so 20 years ago, I couldn't believe my sons 3 grade class a few years ago spent a 1/2 a year on it. Other than signing your name its useless, how many people really write that capital Z in cursive.
My 11 year old has been really good in math for a long time, and I think once those kids are identified early, specialty classes should start, like way more science and biology. I'm not sure how many times he can divide five numbers into seven numbers or the word problems with, (the train left Chicago at 4:00).
How many of our great math and science students are crunching numbers on Wallstreet instead of working for NASA or finding cancer cures. Which brings me to my next point of money, we are a money driven soceity and if you don't have it, well basically you're in trouble. Starting in middle school, econmics classes need to be pushed, not the Home Ec nonsense where you learn to make cookies, I mean good money driven classes where kids learn how important money is, bring in scientists, and stock traders, not career day with garbage men, plumbers,(I'm a plumber) and army recruiters, save them for high school. There has to be a balance on doing that stuff, I don't want to see pre determined careers like communism but something in the middle.
I think a clean sweep of the American school system needs to be done and sooner rather than later, I've been hearing about public school reform for 30 years (I'm only 37).
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This has nothing to do with grades. It has to do with seeing value in what is being learned. I would think that kids who value grades would be more inclined to see value in calculus than kids who do not value grades. Many kids, at my school, take AP classes because they are graded on a 5 point scale and they can boost their GPA's. 
