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Old 01-27-2011, 12:12 PM
 
11,642 posts, read 23,859,121 times
Reputation: 12273

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I NEVER said that lying to officials was an unjust law so why do you keep pretending I did? Have you heard of a strawman because its applicable here.
This is not a strawman argument. A strawman argument is predicated on me misrepresenting your position. I am not misrepresenting ANYTHING about you. I am asking you a question which you are continuing to refuse to answer. Try this:

Just answer my question. Don't elaborate. Just answer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
What I said was unjust is the original law she broke;
The law she broke is lying to a public official You do not seem to understand that. That is the law she broke. It's not illegal for a child to attend a school outside their zone. What is illegal is falsifying documents to make that happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Example, Rosa Parks was arrested and tried for inciting a boycott, but that was predicated on the original "law" she she broke which was unjust. Same here, all of this woman's actions are predicated upon breaking an unjust law.
No her actions are predicated on FALSIFYING DOCUMENTS which is not unjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I really am sorry you do not understand that she was only convicted because she decided to place her children in a school system against a statute on residency and district attendance. On the other hand its obvious that you are hung up on the authoritarian issue and cannot grasp any other viewpoint. There is really no point in continuing to go around and around in circles.
So you see the law as optional?
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,523 posts, read 6,768,857 times
Reputation: 5927
I'm sorry but it appears that there was quite a bit of collaborative fraud taking place by both the jailed woman and her father. It looks they were gaming the system. There was information posted here last night about the woman's father owing 10 years of back taxes. If true, the argument that he was paying taxes so she should be allowed to use his residence is wrong.

I don't know what happened to Buckeye 3's post but it contained information that would make more sense of why this judgment was issued.

This case is being spun. It was a topic on The View. Al Sharpton and other activists have become involved. Just watching the video I originally linked you can see that it was being presented in a biased manner. The omission of other details makes the judge look like a heartless demon when additional information may prove to the contrary.
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:42 PM
 
53 posts, read 56,586 times
Reputation: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Yes, very serious. The local taxes school district system results in segregation and needs to go. It is unjust and not working. But I do not think it should be based on where anyone lives but rather their own talents.

Your analogy is not apt. Any law that is unjust is no law at all, as stated by St. Augustine. I do not have arbitrary rules in my house nor in my classroom. Additionally, I encourage my child to challenge things that are unjust. Should the mother have done it in another forum? Sure, but as someone who abhors the unjustness of the district residency laws I applaud the conversation that is resulting from her actions.

I do not think she was wrong. I think her methods were wrong but not her actions. I am sorry that you do not understand the difference.

Well you have no proof of that beyond your desire to vilify someone. She is not evil, no one is. If you honestly think her motivation was to "get over" instead of getting a better education for her children, I am truly sorry for you and your ability to judge people.

The basis of where her father lives is only relevant if you are arguing about the tax situation. If you are taking the authoritarian view I agree it is irrelevant.

But if you are taking the authoritarian view point I would still argue that the rule of law does not apply to unjust laws.
It's a pity you are not understanding plain language. There are laws that protect for reasons. Those particular laws were put into place BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE THAT WOMAN WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM.

Quote:
Williams, 64, was charged with the two felonies in 2009, court records show, accused of providing false information to the Summit County Department of Job and Family Services regarding his marital status and wife's income.
Prosecutors contend Williams deceived the agency to obtain financial disability assistance, Medicaid benefits and other public aid.
I think this speaks for itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
That is your opinion. I would argue that any unjust law is inherently meant to be broken. Whether its Jim Crow laws, or segregation based on SES, as is the case here, those laws are meant to be broken, that is the very idea on which our country was founded.
That is your opinion. Laws are not meant to be broken or there would be no point in having any of them.

You cannot pick and choose the laws you see fit to follow. Prisons are full of people who do that.

I'm sure the murderer sees a life sentence as just plain silly because the law just make any sense to him or her.
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:38 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,684,540 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
This is not a strawman argument. A strawman argument is predicated on me misrepresenting your position. I am not misrepresenting ANYTHING about you. I am asking you a question which you are continuing to refuse to answer. Try this:

Just answer my question. Don't elaborate. Just answer it.
You are misrepresenting my position by stating that the laws I call unjust are those about lying to officials. I never said.



Quote:
The law she broke is lying to a public official You do not seem to understand that. That is the law she broke. It's not illegal for a child to attend a school outside their zone. What is illegal is falsifying documents to make that happen.
No, that is the law she was convicted of breaking that resulted in her jail time. First, she was charged with breaking Ohio revised code 3313.64 and 3327.06 which regarded establishing residency and the assessment of tuition. Those are the unjust laws.

Quote:
No her actions are predicated on FALSIFYING DOCUMENTS which is not unjust.
I don't think you know what the word predicated means, it means based off of in this instance.

A little cause and effect, she broke the laws of residency by sending her children to the wrong district and then proceeded to further break laws by presenting false evidence of her residency when she was questioned about that residency. Its not possible for her actions to be based on those same actions.

Quote:
So you see the law as optional?
Why do you keep asking the same questions over and over again? I do not beileve unjust laws need to be followed and that if in the commission of objecting to unjust laws other laws need be broken so be it. Rosa Parks was absolutely guilty according to the letter of the law in inciting a boycott. I also believe she should not be held responsible for that because her boycott was predicated on dissent to an unjust law.

Unjust laws aren't just optional they should actively be disobeyed.
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:41 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,684,540 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakija9311 View Post

You cannot pick and choose the laws you see fit to follow. Prisons are full of people who do that.

I'm sure the murderer sees a life sentence as just plain silly because the law just make any sense to him or her.
I never said you should not obey laws based on their "silliness" I said based on their "justness". Our entire revolution as a nation was based off of disobeying unjust laws (a little taxation without representation). Should the founding fathers have been hung for treason for disobeying unjust laws? Surely not.

To equate murder with disobeying laws promoting segregation is ridiculous.
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:25 PM
 
Location: The Big D
14,862 posts, read 42,782,392 times
Reputation: 5787
I don't think it is right. I know people that have and I've never agreed with it. In our district to enroll you have to show proof of recidency: utility bills, etc in your name. Our district also has 5 full time investigators that will literally go knock on the door of any student they suspect is NOT a resident in our district. They will ask to see the childs room and will look around at the family photos displayed. I know several that have been caught by this as they kid was NOT living w/ mom, dad, aunt, grandparent, whoever and the schools kicked them out THAT DAY.
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Old 01-27-2011, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,469,728 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
Mom Jailed For Sending Kids to Better School (http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/mom-jailed-for-sending-kids-to-better-school-23973624 - broken link)

Do you think that it is acceptable for a parent/parents to falsify residency to get their child into a better school district?

Where's the line between right and wrong?

What about the parent/parents who sacrificed to move to the better district and have to subsidize other children whose parent/parents are not sharing the cost burden?
Even when schools are not funded locally (In Michigan, our schools are funded at the state level), this practice sends the wrong message to the kids. It says that it's ok to lie and cheat the system to get what you want. Far better to move into the cheapest house in the district.

I'm in a very wealthy district and several families have downsized but stayed in the district due to job losses. You may not have the big house you want but what's more important? Your kids going to a good school or the size of your house? I have to wonder why this woman didn't just move in with her father or transfer legal custody of the kids to her father. With her father living in the district, they could have done this legally.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-27-2011 at 07:29 PM..
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:04 PM
 
Location: MMU->ABE->ATL->ASH
9,317 posts, read 20,957,428 times
Reputation: 10443
If she legaly moved then in/tranfered custody, then her rent in her public housing apt would sky rocket.
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:54 PM
 
53 posts, read 56,586 times
Reputation: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I never said you should not obey laws based on their "silliness" I said based on their "justness". Our entire revolution as a nation was based off of disobeying unjust laws (a little taxation without representation). Should the founding fathers have been hung for treason for disobeying unjust laws? Surely not.

To equate murder with disobeying laws promoting segregation is ridiculous.
Re-read my post. That's not what I said.

What I said was, the murderer would think his sentence was silly because of the unjust law that states he can not legally shoot someone.

The bank robber must think the laws that protect banks from being robbed are unjust.

The husband who secretly marries another woman must think fidelity laws are unjust.

The idiot who drinks, then drives and kills a family must think that the drunk driving laws are unjust.

The teen who carries a gun to school must think the laws that prohibit guns in school are unjust.

I'm sure you can get the picture now. Where does it begin and where does it end? Because YOU decide a law is unjust, doesn't not mean it is. Because YOU decide that woman should be able to take her kids and enroll them in any school she wants, doesn't mean she can.

There are reasons for laws like those she broke. It prevents over-burdening certain schools and making others empty.

I'm absolutely certain that if you lived in a district that is exceptional and people from all around lie and manipulate the system to get their kids in that school, don't pay taxes to pay teachers or to pay the bills, and your taxes went up, the school became over-crowded and they had to start bussing YOUR kids to another school to alleviate the over-crowding, I think you'd have a problem.

Laws are put in place for reasons that you don't seem to understand, but they are there for the betterment of the people.
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:24 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,638 posts, read 6,151,904 times
Reputation: 2677
Fraud is fraud. What she did was wrong - period.
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