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Actually, many of the suburban schools have issues with too few students right now. Mine doesn't because of a demographic issue (we have a subset of the population that has large families that wasn't taken into account when they sized the schools). Opening their doors to other districts would actually help their bottom line.
So leaving them in the inner city to stagnate is your solution? Personally, I think those kids deserve better even if their parents can't afford to live in the suburbs. Detroit has proven they can't run schools. It's time to close them.
The problem with charters is that they cannot pick and choose who they let in which means, just like the public schools, they have to try and cater to everyone. If charter schools were magnet schools, I could see them working. As things are now, they have to accept everyone whether the student fits the vision of the charter or not. The charter I worked for envisioned itself as a college prep school but many of our students were not college material. The end result is one charter looks like the next and they look like the public schools the kids bailed from. Usually a little better because the kids in them, at least, have parents who cared enough to move them out of the local schools but not much different.
If I open a charter school that is supposed to be college prep and I can't restrict enrollment to college prep students, what does my school end up looking like? Ans: something other than my vision for it.
And if we allow charters to be what the founders envision them to be, we will have kids going all over tarnation to attend school because the kids will have to travel to the school that fits them. You'll just end up with what you have now if you try to keep neighborhood schools!!! We need to get away from neighborhood schools and start opening schools that serve specific purposes and give them the power to pick and choose who they let in so they can be what they strive to be. This, unfortunately, will never happen because we have this crazy notion that all kids should be able to be anything they want to be. Not everyone is born with the same abilities but we just can't seem to accept that.
The two schools I know of that are wait listed don't suck. That's why they're wait listed. If you'd bother to read my post, you would have realized that I said that three schools in my area focus on academics. One draws most of their kids from Detroit and is not wait listed. Two are college prep and are wait listed. Because they are wait listed, they can kick out kids who don't fit and back fill with the next kid who, hopefully does until they have the student body they want. One is this way because of location. The other because of corporate backing. Even though they have to let anyone in, they don't have to keep anyone. They can let kids flunk out and back fill when kids transfer out.
Most charters around here are not wait listed. They take anyone who enters the door to have the money attached to the student. While they can expel the worst of them, they try to keep them because there is money attached to every student. This is how it was at the charter I worked at and how it is in charters friends work at. The only charters that are different are the few that are wait listed. They have some control over the quality of their students because they have others waiting to get in when students don't fit the program and leave.
I have a difficult time believing you are an educator. You contradict yourself in every single post. First, you state that the suburban schools are overcrowded, and now you state that there aren't enough kids. Then you state that the problem with charters is that they cannot pick and choose the kids who enroll in them, but in the very same post go on to say that they effectively accomplish this by expelling those who don't make the grade. THEN, you state: "And if we allow charters to be what the founders envision them to be, we will have kids going all over tarnation to attend school because the kids will have to travel to the school that fits them" -- but busing them halfway across the county to suburban schools is a better solution?!? Did you really just use that as a reason to NOT have charter schools??????? It seems to me that whatever argument I throw at you to counter a point you're attempting to claim, you just spin your story to fit your narrative that charters schools = BAD. Why don't you just come out and admit that the reason you don't like charter schools is because they aren't union? Stop with the intellectual dishonesty.
Oh, and unless you can cite objective sources about all this supposed anecdotal evidence regarding the charters in your area, I'll chalk that up to biased partisan hyperbole.
I have a difficult time believing you are an educator. You contradict yourself in every single post. First, you state that the suburban schools are overcrowded, and now you state that there aren't enough kids. Then you state that the problem with charters is that they cannot pick and choose the kids who enroll in them, but in the very same post go on to say that they effectively accomplish this by expelling those who don't make the grade. THEN, you state: "And if we allow charters to be what the founders envision them to be, we will have kids going all over tarnation to attend school because the kids will have to travel to the school that fits them" -- but busing them halfway across the county to suburban schools is a better solution?!? Did you really just use that as a reason to NOT have charter schools??????? It seems to me that whatever argument I throw at you to counter a point you're attempting to claim, you just spin your story to fit your narrative that charters schools = BAD. Why don't you just come out and admit that the reason you don't like charter schools is because they aren't union? Stop with the intellectual dishonesty.
Oh, and unless you can cite objective sources about all this supposed anecdotal evidence regarding the charters in your area, I'll chalk that up to biased partisan hyperbole.
Please try READING my posts. I said that many suburban schools have budget issues due to declining enrollment. I happen to live in a city that does not have this issue. Just because my city doesn't have room doesn't mean others don't. Enrollment has declined in my city, but as I explained, if you read my posts, our schools were undersized to begin with. Many districts are hurting due to declining enrollment due to families moving out of state. We just don't happen to be one of them. We're seeing an influx of families moving in from the city because housing is so cheap where I am and that has kept our enrollment up. You can buy a house here that sold for $150K 6 years ago for $40K right now. Many families that never could afford houses before are buying in my area as a result. That is unusual for Michigan right now. Most districts have had to shrink. The one I work for has had to shrink. We have lots of empty classrooms.
And yes, if charter schools are allowed to become magnet schools, which is the only thing that might work, you will have kids traveling all over the place to get to the school that fits them.
I've looked into several charter schools during my job search. I wouldn't work at most of them. The only good thing I can say is that, often, the charter is better than the school the child came from. They, usually, don't compare to the local schools though.
All you have to do is go onto the great schools website and compare charter schools to local schools to see they don't compare. They may be a step up from where the kids come from but they're not up to the local standard, for the most part. Charter schools face serious issues with things like high teacher turn over rates. The school I was working for loses 1/3 of their teachers every year. They lost more than that this year due to the state retirement incentives and a neighboring district deciding that they'd recruit teachers from charters because they have some experience rather than back fill with new teachers right out of college.
"EAST LANSING, Mi., June 24, 2009 – A new report on the impact of charter schools on student performance finds that, on average, charter schools perform no better than traditional public schools."
Edited to add: For my city - the four high schools receive the following rankings in great schools data base 8,7, 5 and 1 (alternative ed) (out of 10 - my kids attend the school rated 7 out of 10). The charter schools in this city receive the following rankings 5, 2, 2, 1. The 5 is one of the three schools I talked about with a wait list. Now, given that most of the students in those charters come from places like Detroit, that's probably an improvement but they are not getting the education my kids get in the local schools.
I challenge you to go to great schools web site and look at how the charters in your city compare to the local schools. I'll be surprised if they're doing better. Also take the time to read some of the comments made by teachers and parents. Charter schools were a good idea but I don't think the reality is living up to the hype.
Please remember that my kids attended a charter school for four years. 20/20 hind sight, I should have cut that short for dd#1. The k-6 program was great but I didn't realize it fell apart after that. Dd#2 got out in time. Dd#1 is struggling to catch up to her peers in her new district. She was ok in our local district but they are lower performing schools.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-17-2011 at 12:23 PM..
Please try READING my posts. I said that many suburban schools have budget issues due to declining enrollment. I happen to live in a city that does not have this issue. Just because my city doesn't have room doesn't mean others don't. Enrollment has declined in my city, but as I explained, if you read my posts, our schools were undersized to begin with. Many districts are hurting due to declining enrollment due to families moving out of state. We just don't happen to be one of them. We're seeing an influx of families moving in from the city because housing is so cheap where I am and that has kept our enrollment up. You can buy a house here that sold for $150K 6 years ago for $40K right now. Many families that never could afford houses before are buying in my area as a result. That is unusual for Michigan right now. Most districts have had to shrink. The one I work for has had to shrink. We have lots of empty classrooms.
Well good for those families that can pack it up and move. It will be interesting to see how these large shifts in demographics will play out for the greater Detroit area. I'm glad I'm not a guinea pig in that experiment though. I don't really know what point you're trying to make here other than point out the obvious that Detroit and its metro area is severely depressed, even in the 'burbs. Really, what is the difference if you have empty classrooms within the city proper or in the suburbs? You can't just move kids to a different school and expect them to magically be transformed into studious kids who place a priority on attaining a solid education without addressing the underlying problem. Playing musical chairs with schools doesn't solve a damn thing... a point that you consistently fail to address. There will still be huge gaps in achievement. Take a look at one of the most integrated school districts in the Chicagoland area, Evanston Township. Despite attending the same schools with the same books, curriculum, and teachers, there has continued to be a pervasive achievement gap between the different SES classes and races. Simply attending a more affluent school with kids from higher socioeconomic backgrounds has not seemed to have any effect on the educational outcomes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
And yes, if charter schools are allowed to become magnet schools, which is the only thing that might work, you will have kids traveling all over the place to get to the school that fits them.
Exactly, so why would that be worse than kids traveling even further to the suburbs to attend districts that they don't even live in? Tailoring schools to match the kids' needs makes a lot more sense than transplanting the problem from one location to another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I've looked into several charter schools during my job search. I wouldn't work at most of them. The only good thing I can say is that, often, the charter is better than the school the child came from. They, usually, don't compare to the local schools though.
You either change with the times or get left behind, but this isn't about you or your job search. I'm glad to hear that you can be so picky about your employment since there are literally thousands upon thousands of unemployed teachers looking for any type of teaching jobs. Kudos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
All you have to do is go onto the great schools website and compare charter schools to local schools to see they don't compare. They may be a step up from where the kids come from but they're not up to the local standard, for the most part. Charter schools face serious issues with things like high teacher turn over rates. The school I was working for loses 1/3 of their teachers every year. They lost more than that this year due to the state retirement incentives and a neighboring district deciding that they'd recruit teachers from charters because they have some experience rather than back fill with new teachers right out of college.
If implemented well and done correctly, there is no reason why they cannot succeed. As the benefits, pay, and collective bargaining abilities continue to get stripped from the unionized public school teachers, public school benefits will be no different from charter school benefits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
High-quality charter school report confirms past research (http://www.mea.org/members/062509_high-quality_charter_school_report.html - broken link)
"EAST LANSING, Mi., June 24, 2009 – A new report on the impact of charter schools on student performance finds that, on average, charter schools perform no better than traditional public schools."
I guess you failed to read the part about objective sources of information?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Edited to add: For my city - the four high schools receive the following rankings in great schools data base 8,7, 5 and 1 (alternative ed) (out of 10 - my kids attend the school rated 7 out of 10). The charter schools in this city receive the following rankings 5, 2, 2, 1. The 5 is one of the three schools I talked about with a wait list. Now, given that most of the students in those charters come from places like Detroit, that's probably an improvement but they are not getting the education my kids get in the local schools.
I challenge you to go to great schools web site and look at how the charters in your city compare to the local schools. I'll be surprised if they're doing better. Also take the time to read some of the comments made by teachers and parents. Charter schools were a good idea but I don't think the reality is living up to the hype.
As I said, if implemented well and with the right structuring and support, there is no reason why they cannot succeed. I'll ask a second time, have you ever seen the documentary "Waiting for Superman"? Tailoring schools to meet the needs of the students makes sense. Not all kids are college material and would better benefit from alternative curricula that teaches traditional skills that society still needs, i.e., plumbers, electricians, autobody repair, HVAC. Telling all kids that they need to go to college when not all kids can do so either academically or financially is doing them a disservice. Instead of pumping out another generation of an unskilled workforce, why not give kids the skills they need or desire to succeed in life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Please remember that my kids attended a charter school for four years. 20/20 hind sight, I should have cut that short for dd#1. The k-6 program was great but I didn't realize it fell apart after that. Dd#2 got out in time. Dd#1 is struggling to catch up to her peers in her new district. She was ok in our local district but they are lower performing schools.
I have a difficult time believing you are an educator. Oh, and unless you can cite objective sources about all this supposed anecdotal evidence regarding the charters in your area, I'll chalk that up to biased partisan hyperbole.
Unless Ivory has been lying the entire three years she's been on this forum, there's no doubt she's an educator. Her stories hang together; she's not weaving a tangled web that one does when trying to deceive.
This isn't the P&OC forum; politics doesn't have a place here.
Well good for those families that can pack it up and move. It will be interesting to see how these large shifts in demographics will play out for the greater Detroit area. I'm glad I'm not a guinea pig in that experiment though. I don't really know what point you're trying to make here other than point out the obvious that Detroit and its metro area is severely depressed, even in the 'burbs. Really, what is the difference if you have empty classrooms within the city proper or in the suburbs? You can't just move kids to a different school and expect them to magically be transformed into studious kids who place a priority on attaining a solid education without addressing the underlying problem. Playing musical chairs with schools doesn't solve a damn thing... a point that you consistently fail to address. There will still be huge gaps in achievement. Take a look at one of the most integrated school districts in the Chicagoland area, Evanston Township. Despite attending the same schools with the same books, curriculum, and teachers, there has continued to be a pervasive achievement gap between the different SES classes and races. Simply attending a more affluent school with kids from higher socioeconomic backgrounds has not seemed to have any effect on the educational outcomes.
Exactly, so why would that be worse than kids traveling even further to the suburbs to attend districts that they don't even live in? Tailoring schools to match the kids' needs makes a lot more sense than transplanting the problem from one location to another.
You either change with the times or get left behind, but this isn't about you or your job search. I'm glad to hear that you can be so picky about your employment since there are literally thousands upon thousands of unemployed teachers looking for any type of teaching jobs. Kudos.
If implemented well and done correctly, there is no reason why they cannot succeed. As the benefits, pay, and collective bargaining abilities continue to get stripped from the unionized public school teachers, public school benefits will be no different from charter school benefits.
I guess you failed to read the part about objective sources of information?
As I said, if implemented well and with the right structuring and support, there is no reason why they cannot succeed. I'll ask a second time, have you ever seen the documentary "Waiting for Superman"? Tailoring schools to meet the needs of the students makes sense. Not all kids are college material and would better benefit from alternative curricula that teaches traditional skills that society still needs, i.e., plumbers, electricians, autobody repair, HVAC. Telling all kids that they need to go to college when not all kids can do so either academically or financially is doing them a disservice. Instead of pumping out another generation of an unskilled workforce, why not give kids the skills they need or desire to succeed in life.
I'm sorry, but am I supposed to care?
I'm talking about moving kids to established schools that are already somewhat successful rather than trying to reinvent the wheel in Detroit. I really think shutting down Detroit schools is the only viable option. They're a disaster.
I am attempting to address the unerlying problem. At least kids bussed out of the city will get to see that there is another way but I can't change how their parents view eduction. I also can't give them a death sentence because their parents don't care. The only way schools could hope to deal with that issue would be to go to boarding schools and take parents out of the equation. The best I can do is put these kids with peers who care more about education and hope some of it rubs off. I do believe that peer pressure out ranks parent pressure. Being put in schools with kids who have goals just might have a positive influence. We know putting them in schools with kids only like them won't. It's something different. We need different.
Why would traveling to charters be worse than traveling to established schools? They're established schools. Converting to charters is one huge experiment. So far, charters have not proven to be any better than the local schools. The suburban schools have shown to be better. My hope is that peer pressure will have a positive influence. I think getting these kids out of the city and letting them see there is another way and another life out there just might have a positive influence.
Show me some objective research that says charters do a better job!! Everything I read is middle of the road. More of the same. The only advantage charters seem to have is that they can expel trouble makers more easily. I supposed if you're stuck in the city that's something but I'd prefer to not have kids stuck in the city. City schools suck so let city kids pick where they want to attend beit a local charter or a suburban school. As I said, many parents already lie about where they live to send their kids to surburban schools. The only reason my city screens is that we are one of the few suburban systems that doesn't have a shortage of students. In fact, if all of the students that live in my city went to the public schools, they'd be busting at the seams. We have a high percentage of families who send their children to private schools.
Now, if we make charters magnet schools and give them the power to pick and choose their student population, then we might see a difference but it doesn't matter what your vision is if you don't have the power to bring it to fruition. The charter I worked for loved to call itself a college prep school but it wasn't one because too many of the students weren't college material. It would have been a nice dream for that area if they could have made it happen but they couldn't. Not with the students choosing to go there. Not that it wasn't better than where they were. Many of them came from Detroit and getting out of the city to go to school is a good thing IMO.
Define "implemented well and done correctly". THAT is the problem. Charters, like local schools are all over the map with one exception. High rated ones are rare. We have several districts in Michigan that are rated 10 out of 10 but few charters attain this rating (I've never heard of one). If the charter in question is better than the local schools, then it is a better choice, however, if the suburban schools are better than the charter, then they are the better choice. I think charters want to be the better choice but I think they struggle with bringing that to fruition for a varity of reasons. I think they start with great ideas but soon find they can't make them reality. At least not and turn a profit for their owners. I think we could improve charters by making them non profit and limiting how much administrators can be paid who work for them.
If I had realized charters are for profit, I don't think I ever would have sent my children to one. I would have just packed up and moved....and lost my shirt on the next house...
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-17-2011 at 02:43 PM..
I'm talking about moving kids to established schools that are already somewhat successful rather than trying to reinvent the wheel in Detroit. I really think shutting down Detroit schools is the only viable option. They're a disaster.
I am attempting to address the unerlying problem. At least kids bussed out of the city will get to see that there is another way but I can't change how their parents view eduction. I also can't give them a death sentence because their parents don't care. The only way schools could hope to deal with that issue would be to go to boarding schools and take parents out of the equation. The best I can do is put these kids with peers who care more about education and hope some of it rubs off. I do believe that peer pressure out ranks parent pressure. Being put in schools with kids who have goals just might have a positive influence. We know putting them in schools with kids only like them won't. It's something different. We need different.
What you're proposing isn't different and it's already been tried and failed in the past. Busing happened in the '70's and failed to produce positive outcomes. And, by positive outcomes I mean higher test scores of the kids who were bused into established schools. Do the kids from the lower SES rungs perform better in Evanston? I think not. Do huge achievement gaps still exist? Yes, they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Why would traveling to charters be worse than traveling to established schools? They're established schools. Converting to charters is one huge experiment. So far, charters have not proven to be any better than the local schools. The suburban schools have shown to be better. My hope is that peer pressure will have a positive influence. I think getting these kids out of the city and letting them see there is another way and another life out there just might have a positive influence.
And evidence to support that outcome doesn't exist. Again, see Evanston Township School District in Illinois if you want to take a hard look at a well integrated school system. They continue to struggle decade after decade to eliminate the achievement gaps seen between kids of different backgrounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Show me some objective research that says charters do a better job!! Everything I read is middle of the road. More of the same. The only advantage charters seem to have is that they can expel trouble makers more easily. I supposed if you're stuck in the city that's something but I'd prefer to not have kids stuck in the city. City schools suck so let city kids pick where they want to attend beit a local charter or a suburban school. As I said, many parents already lie about where they live to send their kids to surburban schools. The only reason my city screens is that we are one of the few suburban systems that doesn't have a shortage of students. In fact, if all of the students that live in my city went to the public schools, they'd be busting at the seams. We have a high percentage of families who send their children to private schools.
This hasn't been attempted on such a large scale as the one proposed in Detroit, so it's impossible to give you objective research. At least city officials are talking about solutions, and that is a small step in the right direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Now, if we make charters magnet schools and give them the power to pick and choose their student population, then we might see a difference but it doesn't matter what your vision is if you don't have the power to bring it to fruition. The charter I worked for loved to call itself a college prep school but it wasn't one because too many of the students weren't college material. It would have been a nice dream for that area if they could have made it happen but they couldn't. Not with the students choosing to go there. Not that it wasn't better than where they were. Many of them came from Detroit and getting out of the city to go to school is a good thing IMO.
Lack of viable options will cause kids and parents to choose options that may not be the best fit. If there were more charters to choose from, parents wouldn't grasp at the first or only straw available, and perhaps schools better suited to the educational needs of said student would be chosen. If your only choice is between a crappy school or one that isn't the best educational fit for your child, which would you choose? That's not the school's fault, it's the lack of options available.
Unless Ivory has been lying the entire three years she's been on this forum, there's no doubt she's an educator. Her stories hang together; she's not weaving a tangled web that one does when trying to deceive.
This isn't the P&OC forum; politics doesn't have a place here.
I guess facetiousness doesn't translate well on an internet forum?
And I don't recall bringing politics into the discussion. I said partisan, meaning the following:
Quote:
partisan
- 5 dictionary results par·ti·san
1 /ˈpɑrtəzən, -sən; Brit. ˌpɑrtəˈzæn/ Show Spelled[pahr-tuh-zuhn, -suhn; Brit. pahr-tuh-zan] Show IPA
–noun 1. an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, especially a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance.
One question just came to mind. The accusation is that bussing kids to the suburbs won't fix the issue of parents not caring about education. My question is, how does creating charter schools address this issue? At least with bussing to the suburbs, the kids will be around peers who have a different attitude about education that might rub off.
What you're proposing isn't different and it's already been tried and failed in the past. Busing happened in the '70's and failed to produce positive outcomes. And, by positive outcomes I mean higher test scores of the kids who were bused into established schools. Do the kids from the lower SES rungs perform better in Evanston? I think not. Do huge achievement gaps still exist? Yes, they do.
And evidence to support that outcome doesn't exist. Again, see Evanston Township School District in Illinois if you want to take a hard look at a well integrated school system. They continue to struggle decade after decade to eliminate the achievement gaps seen between kids of different backgrounds.
This hasn't been attempted on such a large scale as the one proposed in Detroit, so it's impossible to give you objective research. At least city officials are talking about solutions, and that is a small step in the right direction.
Lack of viable options will cause kids and parents to choose options that may not be the best fit. If there were more charters to choose from, parents wouldn't grasp at the first or only straw available, and perhaps schools better suited to the educational needs of said student would be chosen. If your only choice is between a crappy school or one that isn't the best educational fit for your child, which would you choose? That's not the school's fault, it's the lack of options available.
Busing in the 70's was done for ethnic reasons. This would be done for adademic reasons. I was in a school that participated in bussing and everyone was angry about it. I don't think we have the segregation we had back then. I never went to school with a black person until they started bussing and then none of us knew how to act around each other (it was a culture clash). I think the forced desegregation was the real issue then and attitudes were bad. I think bussing for academic issues would be different and many districts that are hurting for kids would welcome them.
I'm not sure how many my district could absorb. We're down from 2200 to 1700 at the local high school but we were over crowded at 2200. I know the local elementary school can't handle more. There were, originally, three elementary schools in my neighrborhood and two have been closed. A major expansion on the remaining elementary school wasn't enough. My area is unusual though as we had a population problem before people started moving out of the state en masse. For us, losing families was a much needed correction, however, that is not the case for many districts with empty classrooms.
I agree on what parents choose. They will take better even if it's not the best fit. That's what I did. My daughter could not do everyday mathematics and I couldn't afford to keep her in Sylvan for 4 years so we found a charter school that used singapore math, which was a great fit but we traded off other things when we did that. We really didn't have a choice. When you have a child who can't learn in one system, any system they can learn under is better. I'm just not convinced the charters would be any better, whereas, we know the suburban schools are better. Do you go with a known entity or an unproven one? As a parent, I know what I would choose given the choice.
While bussing doesn't address the issues in Detroit, neither does the creation of dozens of charter schools. My bet is with the known commodity. Yes, there will be struggles due to students coming from different backgrounds but it's better than the alternative.
The only reason charters are preferrable to the schools their kids come from is that they are filled with children whose parents, at least, cared enough to get their kids out of those schools. My guess is that when charter schools are local schools they will look just like the local schools used to look. I really don't see this as a solution other than a solution to the budget problem because Detroit gets to keep the infrastructure monies attached to property taxes. All the charter school will get is the state allocated funds for operating budget...that and dilapidated buildings in need of repair ought to be a great combination. I fear all that will happen here is the reopening of neighborhood schools with less funding and a revolving door of teachers...and things will get worse. In this plan, you lose the one advantage that charter schools now have and that's that the kids share having parents who cared enough to get them out of the local schools. Take that away and I'm not sure charters have anything new to offer.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-17-2011 at 03:16 PM..
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Not everyone is born with the same abilities but we just can't seem to accept that. 
NEWS: Detroit looking to convert PUBLIC schools to charter
I guess facetiousness doesn't translate well on an internet forum?
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