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What is the point of a more rigorous academic program? Do you think I actually care what I learned in chemistry, algebra, or anatomy and physiology??? No. I don't care. Nor do I use it. Nor does anyone I know who works in professional well-paying jobs.
Rigorous programs because you say it is just good to have is not a good enough or practical enough reason to have more rigor.
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Originally Posted by syracusa
I agree for the most part. I am certainly not arguing for more money to be thrown at schools. In fact, I would go so far to suggest the unorthodoxy that most would probably benefit from less!
The best kind of education is done with books, pen and paper. All very cheap when public libraries are taken into account.
I am arguing for more rigorous, academically challenging curricula, for teaching less but better materials in terms of quality, for teaching at a slower pace yet more in-depth and more judiciously, and for higher overall expectations, outside of testing and test scores.
Your observation on having a cultural commitment to education is spot on.
I am simply a huge advocate of classical education for education's sake which is NOT what is done in public schools today. (The topic of an entirely different thread could be ..."should it be?").
Also, the relatively small percentage of "nerds" you were talking about will rise above and end up "learned" in any educational system. That is simply because those are people born with a calling for learning and they have scholarly talents. Just like Maradona ended up an amazing soccer player without his mother religiously signing him up for 'soccer'.
He just had a calling in the streets and he was killing that ball with soccer buddies, without coach next to him. Same with the nerds.
syracusa--- " I agree for the most part. I am certainly not arguing for more money to be thrown at schools. In fact, I would go so far to suggest the unorthodoxy that most would probably benefit from less! "
I highly doubt you would have successful schools with less money. Why does the public think schools are immune to the rising costs the rest of society has to pay? Gas, water, electricity ... fuel costs? Walk around a school and count how many computers there are. Um.... you think they're repaired for free? Not to mention good ole' American lawsuits. What better way to pay for your child's college... just sue! Yes, it's cheaper to pay 30K for the kids injury than it is to pay all the atty costs.
The bottom line is that most parents want their child to attend a nice well kept school with the latest technology. However, most parents don't want to pay for it.
My university students do not come from inner city schools. They are children of middle-class, suburban families who could never make it into an Ivy League but who were nevertheless accepted at a lower-tier university.
As college students, for better or for worse, they should be able to represent the "fine"-ness you see in our educational system. They aren't.
They are alliterate (yes, someone who CAN read but won't), they write poorly, they think poorly, they are superficial and think in slogans; and they don't know an oz of math.
That's because someone told them along the way that what matters today is to be "creative" and nothing else (see the "Listen to This" thread).
Old-fashioned, allegedly "useless" abilities such as reading well, writing well, spelling correctly, and doing math are "things of the past". Never mind that no one can really articulate what this evasive "creativity" is supposed to be about, how one can create something out of nothing, and how come that every average Joe is expected to "create" something amazing without having ever mastered the foundations of classical education that served so many generations so well, the uber-creators included.
While Marc Zuckerberg (or whatever his name is) and a couple of others may have hit it with some never-before-heard-of, incredibly lucrative ideas (with very low benefits to society, if you ask me) ...the masses would be much better served by the classical education that opened the minds of so many generations before them.
The trick is the Powers-That-Be finally figured out that a truly educated, enlightened AND numerous population is not the kind of population you want to deal with.
So much for a fine educational system.
Watching Sir Ken Robinson's "talks" is very interesting. However, building an education system around a collection of themes that appeal to fleeting interests is not realistic.
How do you account for the people who go to public school and still do very well in life and in the global market? I don't think they are aberrations.
And I don't believe they are occurring at a lower rate than maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I think the nerds will continue to be the nerds and suck the marrow out of their schooling experience and go on to do great things.
The fact that we have a growing portion of the population that puts absolutely no cultural commitment to education is a much greater contributor to the problem than the actual material being presented in schools. I would believe the schools are crappy if you can show me every student has mastered the material they were able to deliver...then I would say, "Clearly we are deficient here."
You can't convince me that spending money in schools is the answer when I have past and current relatives who live and school in countries where they spend PENNIES on our dollar for education and they can all kick our butts at every grade level.
We spend more money per student than almost every country in the world...the water ain't the problem; it's the horse.
Elementary school is the most critical part of our education system. Developing strong social, listening, and foundational skills in reading, writing and mathematics makes anything possible in the latter grades.
Many elementary programs have significantly cut back on social and listening activities in the primary grades to drive down foundational skill development to younger children. This has not resulted in children being smarter or more capable as they exit high school. As students enter middle school, many students, especially those from "at-risk environments" have a great deal of difficulty in understanding the social/learning expectations in a school setting. This often results in many students realizing lower and lower levels of achievement as they advance through the grades.
The minimalist's view that "less is more" could be the next movement in education. Education can not and should not be a collection of shallow lessons on every conceivable permutation of skill, thought, fact or experience.
Last edited by Lincolnian; 04-23-2011 at 06:30 AM..
The US gives much more than South Korea or Japanese for education, and they're better than the US.So no it's not a money issue, problems are students and parents, many of them don't understand the value of education and knowledge, and many don't know the word "respect".
And I'm 24, still student.
While it is clear that a significant part of the problem can be attributed to individual families who simply fail to value education, a closer inspection of the curricula used (per se) and the standard academic expectations will also point to major flaws in the system itself.
These are not points without merit.
In fact, I agree 100%; but add to these generational differences the increasingly dumbed-down curricula to accommodate the "specialness" of all these millenials and you have your puzzle solved.
"Dumbed down" curricula? Kids today area taking college-level classes in high school almost as a matter of routine. When I was in HS back in the 60s, "college prep" was as good as it got. My kids took calculus in HS. A doctor I know said her HS didn't even offer "pre-calc"! She is about 1/2 generation younger than me. (My HS offered calc for the first time in 1966-67.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by reloop
I agree that a 'classical' education works the brain cells much more. What passes as curriculum now, IMHO, only serves to develop ADHD to me.
You know what I'd like to see? 20 somethings who know how to spell "Tuesday," "February," and "Orange" and actually know what number to assign a month (when they are dating a simple form) without having to stop and think about it.
I'd like to see a person who can accurately fill out a form without asking what is being asked of them. "Do I check this?" "What does this mean?" etc. etc.
I find it pathetic that my kids are able to type 2 letters into "google" and never have to actually know how to look up a word in a dictionary. When they type their reports, the computer corrects their spelling - not their own brain. They barely proof read anymore.
I get annoyed when they look at their math homework and say "Well, there isn't a little sign that has a calculator crossed out, so I CAN use one!" I think technology has made them very, very, lazy, and I grow very, very, tired of fighting with them to use their own brains (not that being tired of it deters me from doing so in the slightest however). Still, I'd like to have a little support from the school as far as getting them to think for themselves.
It strikes me as very sad that when my DD was 9, she had spelling words like "irrational" or "reiterate" (and actually spelled them correctly) yet, would spell "people" as "pepole" or 'taking" like 'takeing" since she forgot about dropping the 'e' before adding '-ing' when she was actually writing a story herself.
When she was in 2nd grade, I can remember she was required to spell "turquoise." At the time she spelled "very" like "verry."
Personally, I think it's ridiculous. Sure, we can make 3rd graders learn Algebra, or how to spell on a middle school level, but when I keep hearing about how 'dumb' our kids are, I have to say to myself "Ha! What the heck do we expect?"
I'm tired of people dissing 20 somethings. The ones I know are very hardworking individuals. I have known many people of my own generation (1967 HS grad) who couldn't spell those words.
would just add my 10 cents worth as someone who was a "consumer" of college graduates as, every year, we would hire a bunch into the firm.
First, there was never a problem with the work ethic. They were invariably as hard working as anyone else.
Second, they were all highly numerate.
Third, English was generally fine but they lacked experience in writing "business English". There was also a tendency for the occasional split infinitive to creep into their work
My experience was that they all had very good social skills but had, to a certain extent, been conditioned to work in groups rather than as individuals. In real life, you need both.
Finally, languages. As an international firm I would have liked to see greater foreign language proficiency. Sure, English is the standard business language. But around the water cooler, speaking French/German/Mandarin/etc. can give you a huge advantage. I did a ton of work with a large Chinese corp. because I happened to have a person who was both an SAP expert and bi-lingual in English/Mandarin.
would just add my 10 cents worth as someone who was a "consumer" of college graduates as, every year, we would hire a bunch into the firm.
First, there was never a problem with the work ethic. They were invariably as hard working as anyone else.
Second, they were all highly numerate.
Third, English was generally fine but they lacked experience in writing "business English". There was also a tendency for the occasional split infinitive to creep into their work
My experience was that they all had very good social skills but had, to a certain extent, been conditioned to work in groups rather than as individuals. In real life, you need both.
Finally, languages. As an international firm I would have liked to see greater foreign language proficiency. Sure, English is the standard business language. But around the water cooler, speaking French/German/Mandarin/etc. can give you a huge advantage. I did a ton of work with a large Chinese corp. because I happened to have a person who was both an SAP expert and bi-lingual in English/Mandarin.
If I have any bi*ch about today's education, that's it. My kids did a lot of group projects. When done right, they were great. When not, they were awful. Usually 1 or 2 kids do all the work and the whole group gets credit. In 6th grade (age 11) my daughter was in a group project. She and another girl in the group were out of school for a special orchestra camp, also a school activity. The teacher decided to check their work while these girls were gone and the leader blamed the deficiencies on the girls. My daughter became very upset when she learned about this. When I talked to the teacher, she went on about group projects and "the real world" (as if I am not a member of the real world), and I said, "It sounds like the leader took advantage of the girls not being there to blame them. That's real world, too."
My university students do not come from inner city schools. They are children of middle-class, suburban families who could never make it into an Ivy League but who were nevertheless accepted at a lower-tier university.
As college students, for better or for worse, they should be able to represent the "fine"-ness you see in our educational system. They aren't.
They are alliterate (yes, someone who CAN read but won't), they write poorly, they think poorly, they are superficial and think in slogans; and they don't know an oz of math.
That's because someone told them along the way that what matters today is to be "creative" and nothing else (see the "Listen to This" thread).
Old-fashioned, allegedly "useless" abilities such as reading well, writing well, spelling correctly, and doing math are "things of the past".
I was with you until the "creative" part.
I teach in a similar college environment. Most of my students do not read and/or write at what I would consider a ninth grade level. This is the norm, not the exception. The longer I teach there, the more I think that my students have no knowledge of the basics because they just don't care. They do not value education at all.
I've stopped asking them to be creative. Asking them to think outside the box is WAY too much work. If I start down that road, they just whine, sigh, roll their eyes, and go back to whatever text they were just sending.
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If I start down that road, they just whine, sigh, roll their eyes, and go back to whatever text they were just sending.
