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Old 05-13-2011, 04:18 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,778,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Parents advocate for their own child-- yes, sometimes, to the exclusion of others-- not because of a sense of "specialness", but because that child is theirs. That's part of parenting. It's my job to do the best I can for my son or daughter. It is not, however, my job to do so for little Johnny in the next classroom. Just because teachers are expected to be objective does not mean parents should be expected to. The stakes are completely different.
And yes, I'm bothered by belittling, insulting terms. That you're not is...well, frankly, pretty creepy.
So I'm pretty creepy eh? It's pretty apparent you dont realize the irony of your post. But that shouldn't surprise anyone....
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,453,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
I graduated from college the first time in 87. I went back to college this past decade. What struck me was moving in day for on campus students. I saw whole families helping the kids move into their dorms, having trucks full of stuff delivered to the dorms/apartments, and mom and dad helping their kids get settled.

Quite frankly I was amazed, first that the attitude was that these weren't young adults but a bunch of junior high kids going off to camp. The second was the amazing amount of crap which somehow is now necessary for a young adult to survive. The funny thing is that at the end of the academic year, piles of stuff, including mattresses, computers, books etc are simply dumped and thrown away.

Now I don't want to get into the bull**** of "when I was a kid," but when my generation went away to college, WE went away, not mom/dad/grandparents/favorite aunt. The responsibility to get to school and set up house was ours, we usually had castoffs that family didnt want/need, or we made do with what we could pay for. What I witnessed was the physical reality that somehow these kids are entitled to this massive amount of waste and frivolity. This is a growing phenomena as unis market themselves in ways that almost downplay the academics and feature the party/spa like setting of their campuses. And many parents fall for that crap because it makes the whole college thing more about fun rather than hard demanding work and responsibility. If students and their families had to actually save the money to go to college, rather than take out loans and postpone the reality of what college actually is, then maybe we would have a far more mature and clear idea of what we pay for and what we get re: college education. I actually agree with much of what you're saying, many college students have no idea of the situation that they're getting into because they have never had to pay for their education and its been made far too easy to get to college.
I would love to be a fly on the wall the first time one of my students tries the excuses they use with me on a college professor. I want to see one of them walk up to a professor, one minute before class starts, and ask "I was absent yesterday, what did I miss?" The sense of entitlement astounds me. THEY missed class but it's MY JOB to tell them what they missed because they can't be bothered to get the notes from a friend or go on line and look at what was scheduled for the day. No, instead, I'm expected to give them a complete run down of what they missed in a 50 minute lecture period in 60 seconds before class starts.

Kids today have way too much done for them and way too little expected of them. Parents are out of control. They want eduction tailored to their child. The problem with this is it's determental to the child!!! Life will not cater to them. Jobs will not cater to them. If they grow up being molly coddled, they're in for a rude awakening when they are adults. College will be a shock for many of them. Hopefully, enough of one that life after college isn't a total shock.
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,453,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
I don't agree with your disdain about special snowflakes. However, here's what I do agree with:

1. Student need to be grouped in core classes by ABILITY, not age.
2. Students who fail core classes need to be retained and remediated, not passed on.
3. Students who exceed the requirements for those core classes need to be advanced, not held back.

I also agree with the idea that teachers cannot make a student learn. It is the teacher's responsibility to teach -- that is, to present the material logically and clearly, to test what has been taught, to provide accurate and consistent feedback -- and the student's responsibility to learn.


I would agree with the "grades" part. I would like to underscore something even more: I see even greater emphasis on the grade than on the actual mastery of the material. Many times, I have had parents insist to me that their child was "an A student." Turns out they often are...that is, on their report cards. When you look at objective measures, however -- PSAT tests, SATs, ACTs, APs, or other assessments -- it's often the case in my experience that the kid is really quite average (or below).

So, why the As when the actual measures of ability suggest otherwise? Two words: Parental pressure.
I agree. Parental pressure has led to major grade inflation. And they get MAD when a teacher denies their child their A. I give fewer A's than most teachers and I get lots of complaints about how I don't help my students (do it for them), don't answer their questions (answer their questions with a question instead of telling them the answer), expect them to learn on their own (study, ugh), etc, etc, etc.... I don't hand hold their way to an A. I don't give extra credit for bringing in Kleenex. I'm just TERRIBLY unfair. I expect A's to be earned.

To be honest, I consider myself an easy A. I could make this a LOT harder. I give credit just for attempting homework (they don't do it if I don't and I'm not grading every homework assignment), labs and quizzes can be resubmitted with corrections for 50% of missed credit (I consider both formative assessments). Tests are the only thing I don't allow a redo on. As things are, I give about 25% A's....and parents complain...
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:09 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,778,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I would love to be a fly on the wall the first time one of my students tries the excuses they use with me on a college professor. I want to see one of them walk up to a professor, one minute before class starts, and ask "I was absent yesterday, what did I miss?" The sense of entitlement astounds me. THEY missed class but it's MY JOB to tell them what they missed because they can't be bothered to get the notes from a friend or go on line and look at what was scheduled for the day. No, instead, I'm expected to give them a complete run down of what they missed in a 50 minute lecture period in 60 seconds before class starts.

Kids today have way too much done for them and way too little expected of them. Parents are out of control. They want eduction tailored to their child. The problem with this is it's determental to the child!!! Life will not cater to them. Jobs will not cater to them. If they grow up being molly coddled, they're in for a rude awakening when they are adults. College will be a shock for many of them. Hopefully, enough of one that life after college isn't a total shock.
I completely agree! It's not only the sense of entitlement, its the sense that the kids should get something at the expense of another child. The belief that nothing is connected, that there is little sense of community, other than a very small circle of families, is going to destroy those people as well, no matter how much they think that it won't.

Let me give you an example. I work with an after school tutoring program which has been set up with FED funds and private grants. It's designed to help ALL kids within the district, from sixth to 12th grade. But none of us who teach these kids ever ask if you're from the district. ANY child will get our help no matter where they come from. I've had adults who heard of the program who showed up with questions regarding pre calculus and we tutored them. One of the parameters of the program is that we have to show the district that a significant number of kids are utilizing the program, and that parents want it to continue. Not unreasonable, all it takes is for us to get a large number of parents to sign a petition saying that yes they want this program to continue. I thought this would be a slam dunk, because after all, ANY kids who needed help could get that help.

Man was I wrong. Time after time I had parents who said they had no interest in after school tutoring. After a while I began to question why they couldn't be bothered to sign the petition. Many of them said they didn't want to get involved. I told them their involvement was limited to the time it took to sign their name. More lame excuses, but after hearing one excuse after another, I simply wouldn't take no for an answer. I began to say they had to give me the real reason why they couldn't sign a petition that would maintain a program which was serving many children.

What it came down to for so many parents was precisely because it helped all students, it might mean that their child wouldn't be as special, that they would have to compete with better students. "My child works real hard to get good grades and these kids just come in and get tutoring, which means that they will get better grades and that wouldn't be fair to my kid." That is basically the sentiment, that their kid wouldn't be so special anymore. The point that we were helping ANY child was the issue. Many of these parents wanted the program gone because it did help all kids.

What these idiots couldn't understand is that in the future their own kids may need the community help for some issue that their children will be facing. But if they did nothing to foster a shared sense of responsibility, if they did nothing at all to help some other families children, they in turn will receive no help. And they shouldn't. The selfishness and self interest will have killed off the one real asset they had, their neighbors and fellow citizens.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,453,119 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
I completely agree! It's not only the sense of entitlement, its the sense that the kids should get something at the expense of another child. The belief that nothing is connected, that there is little sense of community, other than a very small circle of families, is going to destroy those people as well, no matter how much they think that it won't.

Let me give you an example. I work with an after school tutoring program which has been set up with FED funds and private grants. It's designed to help ALL kids within the district, from sixth to 12th grade. But none of us who teach these kids ever ask if you're from the district. ANY child will get our help no matter where they come from. I've had adults who heard of the program who showed up with questions regarding pre calculus and we tutored them. One of the parameters of the program is that we have to show the district that a significant number of kids are utilizing the program, and that parents want it to continue. Not unreasonable, all it takes is for us to get a large number of parents to sign a petition saying that yes they want this program to continue. I thought this would be a slam dunk, because after all, ANY kids who needed help could get that help.

Man was I wrong. Time after time I had parents who said they had no interest in after school tutoring. After a while I began to question why they couldn't be bothered to sign the petition. Many of them said they didn't want to get involved. I told them their involvement was limited to the time it took to sign their name. More lame excuses, but after hearing one excuse after another, I simply wouldn't take no for an answer. I began to say they had to give me the real reason why they couldn't sign a petition that would maintain a program which was serving many children.

What it came down to for so many parents was precisely because it helped all students, it might mean that their child wouldn't be as special, that they would have to compete with better students. "My child works real hard to get good grades and these kids just come in and get tutoring, which means that they will get better grades and that wouldn't be fair to my kid." That is basically the sentiment, that their kid wouldn't be so special anymore. The point that we were helping ANY child was the issue. Many of these parents wanted the program gone because it did help all kids.

What these idiots couldn't understand is that in the future their own kids may need the community help for some issue that their children will be facing. But if they did nothing to foster a shared sense of responsibility, if they did nothing at all to help some other families children, they in turn will receive no help. And they shouldn't. The selfishness and self interest will have killed off the one real asset they had, their neighbors and fellow citizens.
Yup. School is about showing off that your child is the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch NOT about anything trivial like learning and you can't be the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch if someone else gets help....never mind you could have the same help if you bothered.

Unfortunately, this attitude rubs off on kids even when it's not taught at home. Dd#1 decided to quit piano lessons about 5 years ago. About 6 months later, she asked me to make her sister quit too. She didn't like that her sister was getting attention for performances. I have not raised my kids to think they are special little snowflakes. I've raised them to know that hard work pays off and yet, my oldest is buying into the hype. She's told me, several times, that I don't applaud what she does. Her friends all grew up being patted on the back for showing up. She doesn't like that, in this family, you get patted on the back when you actually do something. She wants what her friends have. Trophies for showing up.

I'm so glad she got onto a sports team this year. She's learning that practice and performance really do matter. It's not just about putting on the uniform. You actually have to play the game. They've lost every game this season but the experience has been good for her. Winning is meaningless when winning is easy and losing with grace and dignity is a good life skill.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:12 PM
 
13,252 posts, read 33,422,930 times
Reputation: 8103
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtoiletsmkgdflrpots View Post
Can someone explain the adversarial relationship that seems to transpire between school and the parents/guardians/public?

Does anyone else sense it or am I off base here? Why do I get the sense of "us" vs "them"?
Perhaps someone wants to start their own thread about how bad parents are.... Meanwhile, here's ^ the OP.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:33 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,778,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Yup. School is about showing off that your child is the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch NOT about anything trivial like learning and you can't be the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch if someone else gets help....never mind you could have the same help if you bothered.

Unfortunately, this attitude rubs off on kids even when it's not taught at home. Dd#1 decided to quit piano lessons about 5 years ago. About 6 months later, she asked me to make her sister quit too. She didn't like that her sister was getting attention for performances. I have not raised my kids to think they are special little snowflakes. I've raised them to know that hard work pays off and yet, my oldest is buying into the hype. She's told me, several times, that I don't applaud what she does. Her friends all grew up being patted on the back for showing up. She doesn't like that, in this family, you get patted on the back when you actually do something. She wants what her friends have. Trophies for showing up.

I'm so glad she got onto a sports team this year. She's learning that practice and performance really do matter. It's not just about putting on the uniform. You actually have to play the game. They've lost every game this season but the experience has been good for her. Winning is meaningless when winning is easy and losing with grace and dignity is a good life skill.
Thanks for posting that story. It seems some think that we've strayed from the OP, but I argue that we haven't. In fact your posts gives a good insight into why there is an adversarial relationship between schools and parents. Since many of us in education have endured a constant barrage of bad press re: too much pay, incompetence and the like, it's instructional to see what some educators have to see on a daily basis. Some think that gets off topic, which is wrong, it's right on the OP....
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:36 PM
 
13,252 posts, read 33,422,930 times
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Actually, I very much like my son's teachers and his Principal, vice Principals and I love his guidance counselor. I respect what they do and I think my son's teachers and his GC knows that he's one of the good guys. When I came home from working early this evening (Saturday night) my son was reading his book for AP english. Even though some students just do the Spark notes, my son actually reads his books. I find it very sad that several of you teachers are posting such disrespectful things about students and parents when we're trying our best to do the right things. Assuming that all of us parents are raising spoiled brats does not paint a very good picture of you.

The teachers and administrators know that I'm one of the good parents that can be counted on to stick up for them and expect the students to be held accountable for their actions. I know many other parents like myself, because that's how I was raised.
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:59 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,778,214 times
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Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
Actually, I very much like my son's teachers and his Principal, vice Principals and I love his guidance counselor. I respect what they do and I think my son's teachers and his GC knows that he's one of the good guys. When I came home from working early this evening (Saturday night) my son was reading his book for AP english. Even though some students just do the Spark notes, my son actually reads his books. I find it very sad that several of you teachers are posting such disrespectful things about students and parents when we're trying our best to do the right things. Assuming that all of us parents are raising spoiled brats does not paint a very good picture of you.

The teachers and administrators know that I'm one of the good parents that can be counted on to stick up for them and expect the students to be held accountable for their actions. I know many other parents like myself, because that's how I was raised.
Please point out where any of us said that ALL parents are raising spoiled brats. I certainly didn't, but pointed out that MANY parents refused to help maintain an after school tutoring program available to all children. If you believe that means that I'm stating that ALL parents were that way, then you're mistaken.
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,428,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
Thanks for posting that story. It seems some think that we've strayed from the OP, but I argue that we haven't. In fact your posts gives a good insight into why there is an adversarial relationship between schools and parents. Since many of us in education have endured a constant barrage of bad press re: too much pay, incompetence and the like, it's instructional to see what some educators have to see on a daily basis. Some think that gets off topic, which is wrong, it's right on the OP....
It really is unfortunate that some teachers feel there IS an adversarial relationship between schools and parents, and seem to work to maintain same. We don't do that in health care. We're not all the time talking about how stupid parents are, how they don't care, etc, etc. And we have to work even more closely with the parents, who are usually present for the visit and are the ones who call us on the phone.
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