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It really is unfortunate that some teachers feel there IS an adversarial relationship between schools and parents, and seem to work to maintain same. We don't do that in health care. We're not all the time talking about how stupid parents are, how they don't care, etc, etc. And we have to work even more closely with the parents, who are usually present for the visit and are the ones who call us on the phone.
Health care doesn't compare to teaching (and it is adversarial when you're trying to get a dianosis. Once you have one, treatment, probably isn't (but can be if you disagree with your doctor's course of treatement) but you should try going from doctor to doctor when you know you're sick but they're telling you it's just nerves, depression, anxiety, you're just post partum or "Some women just aren't meant to work outside of the home" as one told me. Turns out my thyroid shut down during my last pregnancy and the baby was a year old before I had a diagnosis because NONE of the doctors I saw would take me seriously.). In health care, once you have a diagnosis, you tailor the treatment plan to the patient. You aren't given 34 patients at a time and told to meet all of their needs in one 50 minute period. Health care would compare to tutoring which I don't think anyone would see as adversarial. At least not after a proper diagnosis.
I learned long ago to not trust health care professionals because many can't admit when they don't know the answer or where to send you to find it. They'll tell you anything to dismiss you and get you to go away. If I hadn't demanded a TSH test (Thank goodness for the internet), I might be on my 30th anti depressant right now instead of on Synthroid. Health care is about the only other area I see as adversarial as teaching and parents. If you don't do your homework, you may not get the treatment you need. The difference between the two is that in health care, you actually do need individualized treatment. In education, more often than not, what is needed is for the student to step up to the plate.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-15-2011 at 04:58 AM..
Please point out where any of us said that ALL parents are raising spoiled brats.
Here's a little sample of the parent bashing that is supposedly "on topic"
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Yup. School is about showing off that your child is the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch NOT about anything trivial like learning and you can't be the best and brightest snowflake in the bunch if someone else gets help....never mind you could have the same help if you bothered.
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Since many of us in education have endured a constant barrage of bad press re: too much pay, incompetence and the like, it's instructional to see what some educators have to see on a daily basis.
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What it came down to for so many parents was precisely because it helped all students, it might mean that their child wouldn't be as special, that they would have to compete with better students. "My child works real hard to get good grades and these kids just come in and get tutoring, which means that they will get better grades and that wouldn't be fair to my kid." That is basically the sentiment, that their kid wouldn't be so special anymore. The point that we were helping ANY child was the issue. Many of these parents wanted the program gone because it did help all kids.
What these idiots couldn't understand is that in the future their own kids may need the community help for some issue that their children will be facing. But if they did nothing to foster a shared sense of responsibility, if they did nothing at all to help some other families children, they in turn will receive no help. And they shouldn't. The selfishness and self interest will have killed off the one real asset they had, their neighbors and fellow citizens.
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Kids today have way too much done for them and way too little expected of them. Parents are out of control. They want eduction tailored to their child. The problem with this is it's determental to the child!!! Life will not cater to them. Jobs will not cater to them. If they grow up being molly coddled, they're in for a rude awakening when they are adults. College will be a shock for many of them. Hopefully, enough of one that life after college isn't a total shock.
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Parental pressure has led to major grade inflation. And they get MAD when a teacher denies their child their A. I give fewer A's than most teachers and I get lots of complaints about how I don't help my students (do it for them), don't answer their questions (answer their questions with a question instead of telling them the answer), expect them to learn on their own (study, ugh), etc, etc, etc.... I don't hand hold their way to an A. I don't give extra credit for bringing in Kleenex. I'm just TERRIBLY unfair. I expect A's to be earned.
And that's just one page. Shoot, my kids have all had a couple of bad teachers. I remember a social studies teacher my daughter had in tenth grade that was rumored to be bi-polar and who often screamed at the kids and was known to throw chairs to make a point. We thought she was exaggerating. Turned out he was creepy. Two years after she graduated, he was arrested for child pornography and committed suicide. My son had a math teacher that was extremely sarcastic, so much so that many of the kids were afraid to participate or ask questions in fear that she would make fun of them. I could probably pick out one teacher a year that was simply bad at their job, but that doesn't mean that teachers are bad, just like a couple of bad students or parents don't make the majority of students or parents incompetent. The majority of teachers, are just like me- working hard and trying to raise our kids the best we know how.
There are many kids like mine - hard working, people pleasing - normal. But, to hear some of you talk, they are all grade grubbing narcissists, raised by parents of the same ilk. Why aren't they mentioned?
I guess the OP was correct in the adversarial nature of teachers and parents, but I am happy to say that IRL, I haven't found that to be the case. Just this forum...
Here's a little sample of the parent bashing that is supposedly "on topic"
and
and
and
And that's just one page. Shoot, my kids have all had a couple of bad teachers. I remember a social studies teacher my daughter had in tenth grade that was rumored to be bi-polar and who often screamed at the kids and was known to throw chairs to make a point. We thought she was exaggerating. Turned out he was creepy. Two years after she graduated, he was arrested for child pornography and committed suicide. My son had a math teacher that was extremely sarcastic, so much so that many of the kids were afraid to participate or ask questions in fear that she would make fun of them. I could probably pick out one teacher a year that was simply bad at their job, but that doesn't mean that teachers are bad, just like a couple of bad students or parents don't make the majority of students or parents incompetent. The majority of teachers, are just like me- working hard and trying to raise our kids the best we know how.
There are many kids like mine - hard working, people pleasing - normal. But, to hear some of you talk, they are all grade grubbing narcissists, raised by parents of the same ilk. Why aren't they mentioned?
I guess the OP was correct in the adversarial nature of teachers and parents, but I am happy to say that IRL, I haven't found that to be the case. Just this forum...
Seriously? If even most kids appreciated education and desired to learn for learning's sake, education would look very different than it does today. Too many kids just want a grade. Too many parents just want a grade. And they're often grades that are higher than the student has earned. Too many kids view education as something being forced upon them instead of an opportunity.
Sure, there are some kids who are great. They appreciate education and know that it is to their benefit to make sure they get a good education. Unfortunately, they are not the majority. Just because we didn't pat your kids on the back, as they, obviously, so deserve, doesn't mean we don't know they are there. This discussion just happens to be about what is wrong in education. It is true that the top 10% of our students compare favorably to the rest of the world but that has nothing to do with the state of education. The top 10% do well, pretty much, no matter where you plant them because of who they are. It's the other 90% we struggle with.
Health care doesn't compare to teaching (and it is adversarial when you're trying to get a dianosis. Once you have one, treatment, probably isn't (but can be if you disagree with your doctor's course of treatement) but you should try going from doctor to doctor when you know you're sick but they're telling you it's just nerves, depression, anxiety, you're just post partum or "Some women just aren't meant to work outside of the home" as one told me. Turns out my thyroid shut down during my last pregnancy and the baby was a year old before I had a diagnosis because NONE of the doctors I saw would take me seriously.). In health care, once you have a diagnosis, you tailor the treatment plan to the patient. You aren't given 34 patients at a time and told to meet all of their needs in one 50 minute period. Health care would compare to tutoring which I don't think anyone would see as adversarial. At least not after a proper diagnosis.
I learned long ago to not trust health care professionals because many can't admit when they don't know the answer or where to send you to find it. They'll tell you anything to dismiss you and get you to go away. If I hadn't demanded a TSH test (Thank goodness for the internet), I might be on my 30th anti depressant right now instead of on Synthroid. Health care is about the only other area I see as adversarial as teaching and parents. If you don't do your homework, you may not get the treatment you need. The difference between the two is that in health care, you actually do need individualized treatment. In education, more often than not, what is needed is for the student to step up to the plate.
Sorry, I don't agree with the "that's different" answer. At the end of the day, pediatricians and their staffs are dealing with the same type of situations as teachers when it comes to the professional/home/public issue. However, much as you may not believe it, we work to not have those feelings towards parents. We constantly tell ourselves that parents want what's best for their kids, something I gather from this forum and this thread in particular, that doesn't even cross SOME educators' minds.
As for your adventures in health care, I'm glad you got your problems resolved. Sorry you think we're all a bunch of jerks b/c of your bad experience.
Sorry, I don't agree with the "that's different" answer. At the end of the day, pediatricians and their staffs are dealing with the same type of situations as teachers when it comes to the professional/home/public issue. However, much as you may not believe it, we work to not have those feelings towards parents. We constantly tell ourselves that parents want what's best for their kids, something I gather from this forum and this thread in particular, that doesn't even cross SOME educators' minds.
As for your adventures in health care, I'm glad you got your problems resolved. Sorry you think we're all a bunch of jerks b/c of your bad experience.
No, you deal with your patients one on one. We deal with our students 34 at a time six classes a day. Medicine would be closer to tutoring...which is a good thing. I'd hate to go see the doctor and have him addressing a room full of people at the same time...YIKES.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-15-2011 at 08:56 AM..
No, you deal with your patients one on one. We deal with our students 34 at a time six classes a day. Medicine would be closer to tutoring. But you still have to advocate for yourself in medicine. Too often, you will not get the care you need if you don't. I've been there three times in my life. Fortunately, I was smart enough to figure out what the doctors and nurses were unable to in spite of their training. IMO, medical professionals are just resources to aid in self care. If you don't take care of you, no one will. They won't take care of your kids either. I lived at Children's hospital when my dd was there. If I hadn't made sure she got what she needed, she wouldn't have gotten what she needed. I don't care if the doctors and nurses (mostly the nurses ) thought I was a PITA. My dd got the care she needed. It's a shame that it's like this but it is.
Glad you're so much smarter than anyone in health care. We have a few patients like that too, until they need us for something!
I still disagree that "that's different". We have the parent right there! We sometimes have 2-4 adults present for every child, all reading the internet and thinking they know more than we do. So maybe it IS different. You work w/o the parents.
I think we should get back to talking about education; I was just trying to point out that teachers aren't the ONLY ones who have to deal with parents.
Glad you're so much smarter than anyone in health care. We have a few patients like that too, until they need us for something!
I still disagree that "that's different". We have the parent right there! We sometimes have 2-4 adults present for every child, all reading the internet and thinking they know more than we do. So maybe it IS different. You work w/o the parents.
I think we should get back to talking about education; I was just trying to point out that teachers aren't the ONLY ones who have to deal with parents.
As a GREAT doctor I once had told me "I am the expert on me". He said it was up to me to tell him what was wrong and up to him to help my body heal itself (he was into holistic medicine). I know when something is wrong with me. I live in this body 24 x 7. It's just a shame that many medical professionals don't listen when their patients try to tell them there is something wrong. I'm thankful I was smart enough to demand the tests I needed and stand my ground. I can't imagine going years without the proper treatment which is what would have happened if I hadn't taken matters into my own hands.
When you treat 34 patients at once, it will be the same.
I agree on getting back to the discussion at hand. It has nothing to do with the medical profession.
Can someone explain the adversarial relationship that seems to transpire between school and the parents/guardians/public?
Does anyone else sense it or am I off base here? Why do I get the sense of "us" vs "them"?
I think you are "spot on".
The problem people have is they often don't view the world in an economic sense. I tend to do that because I have a background in economics. Let's begin with some basic assumptions about human behavior:
1. People will seek to maximize satisfaction. Satisfaction can consist of material wealth, recognition by others, friendship, romantic love, or having power over others.
2. People understand that their are scarce or limited resources in the world.
3. Most people aren't willing to accept "equality" for themselves or their children. They want the best of what the world has to offer for themselves and their children.
Virtually all major adversarial relationships involve struggles over 1,2, and 3.
1. Parents will battle schools to see that their children get a disproportionate (and unsustainable) share of resources available for public education. Often the financially poorest parents will battle the school over issues of autonomy (power) such as vaccination, teaching sex education, and the role that sports shall play in a curriculum.
2. Teachers and school administrators will battle for higher salaries, better retirement, good health insurance, less accountability, and more control over what they teach in the classroom.
3. Politicians will use issues concerning public education to advance their careers in politics.
4. Students are more likely than any of these groups to get the short end of the stick because young people don't vote and accordingly have no political power. It amazes me at a Board of Education meeting that often 85% of the time is taken up with issues concerning teachers and school district employees. Issues involving students and the curriculum are often barely mentioned.
5. John Q. Public will continue to demand low taxes, but a top-quality product from the educational system. This champagne taste, but beer-budget attitude towards public education will result in a huge amount of frustration. One amazing sight I continuously see are groups of angry senior citizen fighting any and all increases in property taxes destined for public education, but at the same time forgetting how much public education helped contribute to their financial well-being over their own lifetimes.
I'm either a cynic or a realist, but that's how the world works. The best situation overall is when these groups have equal power. Then, they sort of "balance each other out". Its the same theory the Founding Fathers had when they wrote our Constitution. Its a notion of "checks and balances". When any group has disproportionate power that's when the system functions at its worst.
Here's a little sample of the parent bashing that is supposedly "on topic"
and
and
and
And that's just one page. Shoot, my kids have all had a couple of bad teachers. I remember a social studies teacher my daughter had in tenth grade that was rumored to be bi-polar and who often screamed at the kids and was known to throw chairs to make a point. We thought she was exaggerating. Turned out he was creepy. Two years after she graduated, he was arrested for child pornography and committed suicide. My son had a math teacher that was extremely sarcastic, so much so that many of the kids were afraid to participate or ask questions in fear that she would make fun of them. I could probably pick out one teacher a year that was simply bad at their job, but that doesn't mean that teachers are bad, just like a couple of bad students or parents don't make the majority of students or parents incompetent. The majority of teachers, are just like me- working hard and trying to raise our kids the best we know how.
There are many kids like mine - hard working, people pleasing - normal. But, to hear some of you talk, they are all grade grubbing narcissists, raised by parents of the same ilk. Why aren't they mentioned?
I guess the OP was correct in the adversarial nature of teachers and parents, but I am happy to say that IRL, I haven't found that to be the case. Just this forum...
Here's another one, from this forum, but a different thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
Only if charter schools can fix crappy parenting.
Now IRL, I didn't see these problems, either, however, it makes me wonder how many of my kids' teachers felt that way about me! You guys are doing the profession no favors by constantly bashing parents as if they don't care about their own kids. Remember they all want what they think is best for their kids.
Here's another one, from this forum, but a different thread:
Now IRL, I didn't see these problems, either, however, it makes me wonder how many of my kids' teachers felt that way about me! You guys are doing the profession no favors by constantly bashing parents as if they don't care about their own kids. Remember they all want what they think is best for their kids.
Your kids' teachers probably never expressed to you their appreciation for your support of your children, and indirectly, for their teachers.
I deal with the realities of "crappy parenting" every day. One of my top students has been homeless since January because her mother's boyfriend put them out after pimping the girl for money with Mama's blessing. Many more have parents in prison. An alarming number don't know who their fathers are.
The most distressing part of this to me is that now I have been at the same school for 18 years and I have many students whose parents I taught when I first came there. The parents, my former students, have mostly NOT taken advantage of the education that they received and have instead continued the cycle of multi-generational poverty.
I am only marginally aware of what is going on in the suburbs, because my own children are now grown, but my students' parents do not think of their children as special snowflakes. Rather, the children are primarily impediments to their parents' personal lives, even as they provide the basis for the transfer of the taxpayers' money through "entitlement" payments.
The adversarial relationship that exists between our school and parents is largely due to the fact that the parents don't want their children to be held accountable for their attendance, schoolwork, or conduct at all. They were socially promoted, so that is what they expect for their children. Now that the last round of state test scores are back for the seniors who have failed yet again and will not graduate, parents are turning up to rail at the school for not doing enough. This despite months of pull-out tutorials, after-school and Saturday tutorials, and multiple retests--up to 10 attempts for the 10th grade English test.
Of course, all of this is the school's fault in the eyes of anyone who is not at the school on a daily basis to see it for oneself.
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IMO, medical professionals are just resources to aid in self care. If you don't take care of you, no one will. They won't take care of your kids either. I lived at Children's hospital when my dd was there. If I hadn't made sure she got what she needed, she wouldn't have gotten what she needed. I don't care if the doctors and nurses (mostly the nurses 
) thought I was a PITA. My dd got the care she needed. It's a shame that it's like this but it is.
