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Yes, but you can also blame parents for not driving their students to try harder in the math or sciences. Since you supposely don't make any money in those industries.
2. If HS is not serving his needs get him out of HS and into a job training program that will serve his needs. A GED is attainable.
This is my point. Why do kids like him have to drop out of school, get a GED and then look for a trade program? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a trade program in the school so all students can get a diploma?
A trade program will teach him a trade, that's it. If they stay in school they can continue to learn core subjects as well as the trade.
I totally agree with high schoolers learning english, math, biology and history. I don't agree that ALL students should learn advanced math or sciences. However, with a trade program many students would learn concepts of advanced math or sciences through hands-on approaches. Instead of them sitting in a class memorizing facts, they could be learning them at a way that is conducive to them.
It is not practical to think that every child in the United States WILL or MUST go to college. I think it is seen as more of an embarassment if your child doesn't go to college. Children are told early on that it is important that they go to college and they must get into a good one. Some of those kids cannot handle college. Everyone is different. Why are we expecting all kids to be the same?
I believe the bolded above is the KEY to the comparatively mediocre American k-12 educational system when compared to what is done in other countries.
America is trying too hard to make school pleasurable. Easy. Colorful. hands-on and game-like - all while introducing an enormous amount of information FAST and SUPERFICIALLY.
It is what, in my opinion, distinguishes the system from that of other countries where teaching is done more rigorously but with fewer bells and whistles and where students are expected to "'suffer" even through tedious, pains-taking or difficult levels of work.
The vast majority of children are naturally NOT interested in difficult school work. Only born-geniuses are and Lord knows those are very few and far between. The child who will just not give up until he solves I don't know what kind of crazy math equation - all without being expected to! - is a very rare child.
But that doesn't mean children should not be expected to "suffer" through it until they reach the other side where mastery gives that happy sense of accomplishment. Then children say "oh, this is really easy!" just to congratulate themselves - when it actually was not all that easy in the first place; but the habit of putting up with the effort and the discomfort associated with rigorous academics eventually MADE IT easy.
Although I DO see the good intentions associated with the American approach to education, the effort of trying to make any learning process fun and entertaining is not doing any favors to the quality of schooling in America. It tends to teach students some skills without a solid theoretical foundation.
This is where I think the failure resides.
And this is also very, very true for those who are not college material but are rather the applied, skilled type. Too many students who are CLEARLY not college-material enter colleges today.
Where is the applauding icon when you need it....
Our kids have been conditioned to only do things that are enjoyable, easy and entertaining. As soon as success demands something of them, parents start making excuses as to why Johnny shouldn't be expected to do this. While kids in other countries get tutors and go to school on Saturday until they get it, our kids make excuses!!! We need students who are willing to delve deeper before education can go deeper. Education isn't about entertainment. Much of what we need to learn is boring and requires effort to learn but we are dealing with kids who think everything should be entertaining and easy and everyone else is to blame for their failures except them. It is the attitudes of our students that is destroying education in this country and those attitudes come from home.
I agree that not all students are college material. I would expect those would be the students who will pass classes as opposed to acing them. It's not just take the class or not. There are degrees of learning in any class. The A and B students are your college bound students. The C and D students may or may not be college bound BUT that doesn't mean they shouldn't take the class. The problem is, we don't know which a child is until we try. I would go as far as to argue that perhaps the passing score should be lowered with the understanding that students attaining that score are not prepared to go on. To be honest, I don't have a problem with giving a student credit for learning 50% of what I teach in chemistry. A student who only learns that much isn't going on in chemistry anyway and if they do, they will need to repeat my class first to earn a grade that indicates they are ready to go on.
I also agree regarding students entering college who are not college material. You should have a pretty good idea by the time you leave high school whether you are or are not academically inclined and choose your program accordingly. There are plenty of colleges that offer vocational programs and society needs people in those positions.
This is my point. Why do kids like him have to drop out of school, get a GED and then look for a trade program? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a trade program in the school so all students can get a diploma?
A trade program will teach him a trade, that's it. If they stay in school they can continue to learn core subjects as well as the trade.
I totally agree with high schoolers learning english, math, biology and history. I don't agree that ALL students should learn advanced math or sciences. However, with a trade program many students would learn concepts of advanced math or sciences through hands-on approaches. Instead of them sitting in a class memorizing facts, they could be learning them at a way that is conducive to them.
It is not practical to think that every child in the United States WILL or MUST go to college. I think it is seen as more of an embarassment if your child doesn't go to college. Children are told early on that it is important that they go to college and they must get into a good one. Some of those kids cannot handle college. Everyone is different. Why are we expecting all kids to be the same?
Because the student you're describing is not high school material. Just like everyone is not college material, everyone isn't high school material either. If they can't handle high school, they can't handle high school. You find another school they can handle. If that means they don't get a diploma, then they don't get a diploma. The more we lower the bar on diplomas, the less they mean.
The answer to your son not being able to handle high school is not dummying down high school so he can get a meaningless diploma (dummy down enough and they become meaningless). It's finding a program he can handle or figuring out how to get him to the point he can handle the program. No one is going to make him take calculus!!!!!
BTW, my understanding is that it's actually harder to get a GED than a high school diploma. To PASS high school classes, all you have to do is show up and put in reasonable effort for most classes and you can, usually, avoid the ones where you'd have to do more. To get a GED, you actually have to pass the tests. You can pass my class with a D- with less than a 50% average on my tests including the final ***IF**** you've done all the other work and taken advantage of additional points you can earn for resubmissions. Like many teachers in my school, I give credit for homework just for trying (I can't see grading it when they're just learning the material but they need to try). I go further and consider lab reports and quizzes as formative and allow resubmission for 50% of missed credit. The end result is, it is quite reasonable for a student to have a B average on homework, labs and quizzes, which total to half of the grade in the class. If they take advantage of resubmissions, they can pass my class with less than 50% on the tests and final.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-26-2011 at 01:08 PM..
This is my point. Why do kids like him have to drop out of school, get a GED and then look for a trade program? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a trade program in the school so all students can get a diploma?
He doesn't HAVE to drop out of school. He can pass the class. Passing HS classes is pretty easy. If he doesn't want to pass the class he should try for a GED.
In order to pass the class he will need support. You don't want to support him with a tutor so what other support can you offer him?
Why isn't he passing? In most high school classes kids who do what they are supposed to do but don't do well on the tests can still get a C- (PASSING). What is happening that he cannot pass? Help him. He obviously needs help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamom1
A trade program will teach him a trade, that's it. If they stay in school they can continue to learn core subjects as well as the trade.
But he can't (or won't) pass the core classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamom1
I totally agree with high schoolers learning english, math, biology and history. I don't agree that ALL students should learn advanced math or sciences. However, with a trade program many students would learn concepts of advanced math or sciences through hands-on approaches. Instead of them sitting in a class memorizing facts, they could be learning them at a way that is conducive to them.
I would like to see the return of more vocational education to high schools. However, I do think that HS graduates should learn the basics of all the sciences, not just biology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamom1
It is not practical to think that every child in the United States WILL or MUST go to college. I think it is seen as more of an embarassment if your child doesn't go to college. Children are told early on that it is important that they go to college and they must get into a good one. Some of those kids cannot handle college. Everyone is different. Why are we expecting all kids to be the same?
We are in agreement. I don't think that all kids should go to college. However, the basic HS graduation requirements are pretty low right now. I don't think we should lower them any further.
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't many community colleges double as vocational schools? The sciences and math needed to graduate are fairly simplified and I do use a lot of it regularly. I took welding and auto repair in high school as well as Ag science, so I dont see why he simply does the basic work, takes vocational classes, then tries to get a certificate for a trade in college?
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't many community colleges double as vocational schools? The sciences and math needed to graduate are fairly simplified and I do use a lot of it regularly. I took welding and auto repair in high school as well as Ag science, so I dont see why he simply does the basic work, takes vocational classes, then tries to get a certificate for a trade in college?
A lot of communities have totally eliminated vocational programs. Since federal funding and grants are often linked to college preperation courses and the percentage of students enrolled that is where many schools are focusing their programs.
Our kids have been conditioned to only do things that are enjoyable, easy and entertaining. As soon as success demands something of them, parents start making excuses as to why Johnny shouldn't be expected to do this. While kids in other countries get tutors and go to school on Saturday until they get it, our kids make excuses!!! We need students who are willing to delve deeper before education can go deeper. Education isn't about entertainment. Much of what we need to learn is boring and requires effort to learn but we are dealing with kids who think everything should be entertaining and easy and everyone else is to blame for their failures except them. It is the attitudes of our students that is destroying education in this country and those attitudes come from home.
I agree that not all students are college material. I would expect those would be the students who will pass classes as opposed to acing them. It's not just take the class or not. There are degrees of learning in any class. The A and B students are your college bound students. The C and D students may or may not be college bound BUT that doesn't mean they shouldn't take the class. The problem is, we don't know which a child is until we try. I would go as far as to argue that perhaps the passing score should be lowered with the understanding that students attaining that score are not prepared to go on. To be honest, I don't have a problem with giving a student credit for learning 50% of what I teach in chemistry. A student who only learns that much isn't going on in chemistry anyway and if they do, they will need to repeat my class first to earn a grade that indicates they are ready to go on.
I also agree regarding students entering college who are not college material. You should have a pretty good idea by the time you leave high school whether you are or are not academically inclined and choose your program accordingly. There are plenty of colleges that offer vocational programs and society needs people in those positions.
I have literally dozens of cousins in the UK from age 55 down to toddlers. With very few exceptions, all the adults left school at 16 and went straight on the dole. The ones in school now are virtually illiterate, as I see every day on the Facebook posts. I expect the little ones to do about the same.
The difference in Britain's school system is that they practice triage at every level. The first set of exams at the end of primary school determines the quality of middle school. A second set of exams at the end of middle school determines what type of higher secondary school the student is eligible for. A third set of exams after secondary school determines the next step--trade or technical school, college prep, or university. At that point, schooling is no longer mandatory and those who can't get jobs get unemployment beginning at age 16. There is no diploma--just exam results that may or may not earn a certificate of general studies with grades in various subjects.
I seriously doubt if any of my cousins passed the exams in chemistry. Most of the girls learned to cut hair, and the boys got very good at binge drinking on their dole money. Unfortunately, this scenario is played out all over the UK, where it is easier to get pregnant and get a council flat at age 16 than it is to study hard and go to a technical college. It may be different in other social classes, but that is my experience.
I asked once about what happens when a kid wants to go to university and my cousin looked at me like I was crazy. She said, "Well, if you're really BRAINY, then you go to King Edward's." But she had never known anyone who went there or to any other sixth form college, a type of university prep school. The result is being played out in Britain with the bored, disaffected youth who don't have anything better to do than riot and pillage. Some of their parents are just as bored and disaffected.
When Americans read or see discussions of the educational systems in other countries, we usually only get their positives. It takes digging a bit further to learn about the widespread problem in Japan of school avoiders--kids who just stay in their rooms 23 hours a day and go out for a bento box. In many European countries, youth unemployment is out of control, as are the youth. Many other countries have an economic chasm between the classes and the poor are usually not in the upper educational track.
That said, I do agree with the philosophy in most other countries that a middle school education is adequate for the trades. Of course, that level is usually equivalent to about a 10th grade US education. I don't have a problem with putting 13 and 14-year-olds in vocational or technical classes so that they can be done with schooling by the age of 16. In America, you can always go back to school.
This is my point. Why do kids like him have to drop out of school, get a GED and then look for a trade program? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a trade program in the school so all students can get a diploma?
A trade program will teach him a trade, that's it. If they stay in school they can continue to learn core subjects as well as the trade.
I totally agree with high schoolers learning english, math, biology and history. I don't agree that ALL students should learn advanced math or sciences. However, with a trade program many students would learn concepts of advanced math or sciences through hands-on approaches. Instead of them sitting in a class memorizing facts, they could be learning them at a way that is conducive to them.
It is not practical to think that every child in the United States WILL or MUST go to college. I think it is seen as more of an embarassment if your child doesn't go to college. Children are told early on that it is important that they go to college and they must get into a good one. Some of those kids cannot handle college. Everyone is different. Why are we expecting all kids to be the same?
I think its almost a conspiracy whats going on in schools.
1st - They subtly tie students self esteem in highschool to college! I.e....you have to "apply yourself", "aim high", "reach your potential", "do your best", etc. What does all this mean? It means going onto a 4 year school. It does not mean picking up a shovel or becoming a janitor.
2nd - They eliminate other options. They don't like motivated self learners. I think thats a threat to the system. Thus, you are dependent upon all these tests, exams, etc to "prove" that you're smart, or otherwise.
Wasn't George Washington self taught? Or Ben Franklin? There's all these historical figures that were self taught....but then its like they apply a double standard. You can't do that now. You've got to be buried under tests and exams and busywork in order to "prove" you can learn in 2011. It's almost like they want armies of drones to believe they are college ready (whether they are or not).
3rd - They don't want individuality. They want everyone conforming to a predetermined mold. All the self esteem, group work, conformity, etc.
I think trades have been eliminated because they are about individuality, being self sufficient, being more of a self learner.
I think the elites that really run the show would rather have a bunch of naive 18 year olds in debt., not knowing any real skills. Maybe the skill is being able to repay the debt! But that's about it.
Why have politically correct degrees grown so much over the last 10-15 years (latino studies, women studies, gender studies, etc), while trades have been eliminated? What's more practical? It seems like boys/men have really gotten the short end of the stick.
4th - Why don't they just put the trade school in the highschool? Why is there so little logic in the system? It seems like you're unduly penalized and ostracized if you want to leave the system.
I think the system is a sham. It's all about the money $$$$. Funding gets cut in one area (trades), but funding goes up in another area (i.e. guaranteeing student loans). Why have trades declined while (questionable) for profit schools have risen so much?
Average students are being taken advantage of and short changed by the elite.
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Just like everyone is not college material, everyone isn't high school material either. If they can't handle high school, they can't handle high school. You find another school they can handle. If that means they don't get a diploma, then they don't get a diploma. The more we lower the bar on diplomas, the less they mean.
