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My main point was there are simple measures that could recover at least some simple industries, that we sure know we could handle.
As for the car industry, l just happen to be from the country where those kind of measures and goverment regulations did not help. II also read a lot about american car industries (mostly novels, but they described very well what the industry is like). So, I simply see no way how these industries could be recovered. I am not sentencing anybody, it is just my oppinion, and it does not mean I am happy about it. I am not here to be blamed for what you guys did to your car industry. I have only been living in this countly for 5 years, and those industries have started to die 20 years ago.
As for the Asia, I think their main strength, is that they have inexpenisive and good quality labor. And this is all. LABOR. Patient , accuarate, reliable asian workers, absence of unions, competition for that kind of jobs. Respect for those jobs. Attitude to work. very scrupulous. Asians and Germans have different kind of society. They do not have "college educated" society. They have society of professionals. Quality control.
My husband happen to work for a company that has a factory in Asia and a factory in Idianapolis. While Indianapolis has great engineers their order prosessing sucks. They can even never report any particular date when the product is going to be manufactured and delivered. Their operations are a mess. His company ended up moving most orders to the Taiwan factory. And the main reason was - Taiwanese guys just do everything on time, always on top of everything. They have 0 problem and complaints from customers regarding receiving their orders.
Would be interesting to hear your suggestion of recovering GE or Ford though. Seriously. Hope the mods do not bann me
Edited to add:
I believe you have a great quality Ford, I believe there are some other good quality cars out there. But true "quality" means consistency. Less variability. You see? You should be more or less sure about what you are buying. I think I do not have to tell you this, that say, with honda - you know pretty well what you are buying. With Ford - it is a gamble.
See bold: Actually, you're wrong. There is consistency in US automobiles. What US auto makers failed to do and Asian auto makers did (this is YEARS AGO) was get preemptive on what they offered the customer. Customers never demanded long term quality, preferring to buy newer cars more frequently, until Japan started delivering a higher quality. Then the customer said "Gee, I like this". That's when the US auto makers had to scramble to up their game but they did, long ago. I have no issue with the quality of the Ford I drive or the next American car I'll drive. Having worked in the industry I've seen the quality numbers and we compare well. Cost is the area we struggle with because of, among other things, legacy costs that Japan doesn't have (their auto industry doesn't have a large (by comparison to their labor force) retired work force to pay pensions and medical benefits for). For now this is still a struggle but in time, it's self correcting as, eventually, other countries with newer auto industries will have the same issues we have here.
As to the cost of labor, that's another issue. It is difficult to compete price wise with countries where labor is cheaper. That's why I said that Americans have to be willing to spend more to protect American manufacturing. However, that is the cheaper option in the long run. Keeping jobs here and money here means we're all better off in the future even if it does mean we pay more for what we buy. Just don't replace it as often. The last three cars I bought were Fords. I drove them all well past 100K miles and then either sold them or donated them to charity where they were driven even more. My plan is to drive my current vehicle to about 180K miles before I sell it or trade it in. I think I'm past the road trip days with it (I'll start renting a vehicle for my 3000 mile road trips) but it still has a few good years left in it and the money I save by driving it (it's cheap because it's paid for, insurance is cheap because it's old, and repairs to keep it on the road are less than half of a new car payment) means I don't have to worry about paying more for a US made car next time. This is not a strategy most Americans are used to. They're used to buying something new every few years. That's the most expensive way to buy cars. So they bargain shop and often end up with something foriegn beacause of cheaper labor and lower legacy costs. Unfortunately, other countries slap tarriffs on US goods so we can't hope to sell them there. It's long past time we did the same.
As to quality of labor, I think we are quite capable of competing with anyone out there. I don't think we do but I think we could. We just have to put our minds to it. I don't think American's are inferior to anyone else. We just haven't had the sense to protect our markets like others have. We need to tax imports so that US companies can compete because the average American shops for cheap goods.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-03-2011 at 02:30 AM..
I didn't know if this should go here or in the parenting forum but since it has more to do with school I figured it might be better here.
Not all kids are college bound so why are the high schools making it more difficult for kids to graduate? Why are there no options for the kids who aren't going to college and want to learn a trade? The school my son attends used to have a trade program and a college program. They have eliminated the trade program so the college prep one is the only option.
My DS failed a class last year so he went to summer school, which I find out today that he failed that too. The summer school class was all online at the school. The teachers said it was very hard and was for kids who were self motivated. Well, if they were self motivated they wouldn't have failed the class in the first place. How does that make any sense? I understand not wanting to make the summer school classes an easy way out but this is ridiculous. So he is repeating the class this semester. Now if he fails another class this year (which is likely) he won't be able to graduate on time.
My son is no rocket scientist and I know he will not be going to college. He has ADHD and before he was diagnosed he had to repeat a grade in elementary school so he is already 17 and will be 18 before the end of the school year. He just started 11th grade today.
I have a feeling that he will get discouraged with school and drop out. How does that benefit society by adding to the amount of kids that drop out? I understand holding kids to a high standard, but not all kids are very academic. Not all will go to college. Someone has to be the janitors, or fast food workers. Why doesn't our education system accept this?
I do think there are far too many A Student types - who get really high grades but never go to apply any their knowledge or brain power - they end up of working at pretty average jobs, or working for average salaries - they never take their potential to the next level. The education system has taught them to be good at retaining, gathering information, and passing exams but never any good at actually putting into any practical use, and developing their intelligence further.
For example - at university we had to choose a Thesis subject - Now nearly everyone choose a lame area, which there was already well researched - so most of the Thesis added no REAL Value - most of the students objective was to get a good grade - and wrote lots of Thesis that read well in academic text, and citations etc - but actually added no REAL value or contributed much to their field.
There is lack of good thinkers - who can actually take all this knowledge and actually apply it to something novel, or invent or create something.
There is such as thing "Practical Intelligence" which very lacking and not developed by the Education system.
The people who have practical intelligence - are the ones who are CEOs, entreprenurs, and who earn the big bucks - for all the rest of us its middle management and cubicles!
This is my point. Why do kids like him have to drop out of school, get a GED and then look for a trade program? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a trade program in the school so all students can get a diploma?
A trade program will teach him a trade, that's it. If they stay in school they can continue to learn core subjects as well as the trade.
CLIP....
It is not practical to think that every child in the United States WILL or MUST go ..... Everyone is different. Why are we expecting all kids to be the same?
Are you searching for a solution to your sons's situation, or do you just want to debate the merits of teaching trades at a high school level? This is America, where we make our own destiny! Everyone is going on about college, but the real success in life is carving out your own path. Many people live full and great lives, and they are either hard working and/or they think outside the box. If your son doesn't fit the mold, encourage him to look AROUND it for other ways to reach his goals. Stop waiting for the system in place to meet his needs, by the time change happens, it will be too late for your son.
P.s. I too have a son, much younger, who suffers from a little anxiety, hates worksheets and is allergic to reading and writing. The local schools, who were not meeting his needs were supposedly the best in our area. I quit waiting for the schools to meet his needs and decided to home school him. Ultimately, will that turn out to be the best choice? I honestly don't know, but at least by doing so I am teaching him that we take things into our own hands and rely on other resources to solve issues. I AM NOT an outside the box type of person, so even "us limited folk" can pass on valuable ideas and lay the foundation for a full and productive life for our children.
Are you searching for a solution to your sons's situation, or do you just want to debate the merits of teaching trades at a high school level? This is America, where we make our own destiny! Everyone is going on about college, but the real success in life is carving out your own path. Many people live full and great lives, and they are either hard working and/or they think outside the box. If your son doesn't fit the mold, encourage him to look AROUND it for other ways to reach his goals. Stop waiting for the system in place to meet his needs, by the time change happens, it will be too late for your son.
P.s. I too have a son, much younger, who suffers from a little anxiety, hates worksheets and is allergic to reading and writing. The local schools, who were not meeting his needs were supposedly the best in our area. I quit waiting for the schools to meet his needs and decided to home school him. Ultimately, will that turn out to be the best choice? I honestly don't know, but at least by doing so I am teaching him that we take things into our own hands and rely on other resources to solve issues. I AM NOT an outside the box type of person, so even "us limited folk" can pass on valuable ideas and lay the foundation for a full and productive life for our children.
Why are tech schools being cut when we have unemployment? Because we don't need more trades workers. The only way tech schools impact unemployment is if we're training people to fill jobs where there is a shortage of workers. Is there a shortage of trades workers? I can't think of any there are shortages of right now. So many occupations are moving over seas or being automated.
The next ten or so years will be interesting to say the least. On top of everything else, education is poised to go on line. So we'll add teachers to the ranks of the unemployed. They can join the line wokers and engineers already there. About the only occupation I see as, remotely, safe is medical and that's temporary. As the baby boomers age, there will be more need for medical professionals but when they baby boomers start to die, that will quickly turn to a glut.
Working seniors outnumber teens in the labor force, July 2010
Why is technical school funding being cut if teens have fewer jobs?
Why is it being cut if they have to compete with seniors for jobs? The numbers and trends don't add up. Teens should be getting their own skills.
-An earlier point, why is it assumed that everything has to happen in the first 18 years of a person life now? Esp as the world has changed so much.
This is the problem with a very structured and rigid school system that hasn't changed since the early 1900's. Why are they given the same class hours and class time as 50 years ago, if the world now is much more unpredictable?
It doesn't make much sense.
Time A in history (say 1950), very little was being outsourced. You had lifelong employment, etc.
Time B in history (2000 or 2011), much more is changing. Why is a student still in a time A structure? Why are so many getting bogged down in debt for marginal degrees if the future is changing so much? Hmmmmm.
The elite don't want functioning, technically skilled kids who are mobile (i.e free of debt). They'd rather have them bogged down, semi-literate, with no skills. I think they want an army of drones.
Why is technical school funding being cut if teens have fewer jobs?
Why is it being cut if they have to compete with seniors for jobs? The numbers and trends don't add up. Teens should be getting their own skills.
-An earlier point, why is it assumed that everything has to happen in the first 18 years of a person life now? Esp as the world has changed so much.
This is the problem with a very structured and rigid school system that hasn't changed since the early 1900's. Why are they given the same class hours and class time as 50 years ago, if the world now is much more unpredictable?
It doesn't make much sense.
Time A in history (say 1950), very little was being outsourced. You had lifelong employment, etc.
Time B in history (2000 or 2011), much more is changing. Why is a student still in a time A structure? Why are so many getting bogged down in debt for marginal degrees if the future is changing so much? Hmmmmm.
The elite don't want functioning, technically skilled kids who are mobile (i.e free of debt). They'd rather have them bogged down, semi-literate, with no skills. I think they want an army of drones.
You missed the point. The jobs they'd fill if they did have tech training aren't there. We don't have a shortage of tech workers. We have a glut.
Actually, we aren't giving the same education we did 50 years ago. 50 years ago education was tracked and many kids simply never graduated. You were only college bound if you were on the top track.
The elite don't care what the non elite do or whether they carrry debt or not. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the elite would just as soon not have the competition for their kids WRT jobs. The problem is, there aren't a bunch of tech jobs waiting for kids we train for tech jobs. There are only so many service sector jobs to go around. It only makes sense for public schools to do tech training if kids will actually have jobs when they are done.
Also, if you want a mobile population, you need one with broad skills and enough education to be adaptable. Training that is too specific is not mobile. It's limited. I read somewhere that the average person entering the work force today will bave something like 13 different occupations in their lifetime. That being the case, the most broad education they can get is the best one to have. A broad education makes them more trainable as things change. When looked at in this light, giving all kids a high quality education makes sense even though many will be in tech positions. The issue is the tech positions are going to change, multiple times, during their lifetime and they have to be prepared to change with them.
I'm referring to vocational workers not electrical engineers. Electrical engineers are the one branch of engineering that has maintained employment here. I know many mechanical and chemical engineers who are out of work or who have left the state to find work but EE's are actually being recruited into the area. Civil engineers are doing ok now that we're starting to repair infrastructure.
I'm referring to the subject of this thread. Jobs that those who are recieving tech training at the high schools would take. At least here, we have a glut. Michigan's number 1 export has been educated people for some time now.
I'm referring to vocational workers not electrical engineers. Electrical engineers are the one branch of engineering that has maintained employment here. I know many mechanical and chemical engineers who are out of work or who have left the state to find work but EE's are actually being recruited into the area. Civil engineers are doing ok now that we're starting to repair infrastructure.
I'm referring to the subject of this thread. Jobs that those who are recieving tech training at the high schools would take. At least here, we have a glut. Michigan's number 1 export has been educated people for some time now.
I was unaware you were in Michigan. The job situation sucks up there for everyone. My husband was born and raised there and would never go back. Michigan put all of its eggs in one basket and thought the automobile party would go on forever. That's why centralized planning doesn't work, no one planning committee can predict the future.
However, I still disagree with your assessment of voc tech. When we lived in Seattle, there were programs set up to recruit inner city kids into apprenticeship programs in plumbing and electrical but they couldn't fill the spots because everybody wanted to go to college. As the city council person I was discussing it with lamented (he was African American), these young people would have been so much better economically going into the trades because most will get degrees of questionable value and will be lucky if they get out and find jobs as baristas or file clerks making less than $10 an hour. There was a shortage of skilled trades people up there driving up price. Plumbers charged something like $100 an hour.
We have a friend down here that is a plumber (he runs his own company and has a PhD in anthropology) He makes far more in a skilled trade than he would have IF he could have found a job in academia.
We've had to hire skilled trades people to work on our house at times and again, we've paid anywhere from $60 to $100 an hour. If there were a 'glut' the rates wouldn't be that high.
I think you live in a depressed area of the country and are generalizing your experience to the rest of the country. The truth is skilled trades people CANNOT be outsourced the way other people can. Even radiological medical work is being outsourced right now - you have people in India reading your x-rays. Lawyers are also looking at their work being outsourced.
I was unaware you were in Michigan. The job situation sucks up there for everyone. My husband was born and raised there and would never go back. Michigan put all of its eggs in one basket and thought the automobile party would go on forever. That's why centralized planning doesn't work, no one planning committee can predict the future.
However, I still disagree with your assessment of voc tech. When we lived in Seattle, there were programs set up to recruit inner city kids into apprenticeship programs in plumbing and electrical but they couldn't fill the spots because everybody wanted to go to college. As the city council person I was discussing it with lamented (he was African American), these young people would have been so much better economically going into the trades because most will get degrees of questionable value and will be lucky if they get out and find jobs as baristas or file clerks making less than $10 an hour. There was a shortage of skilled trades people up there driving up price. Plumbers charged something like $100 an hour.
We have a friend down here that is a plumber (he runs his own company and has a PhD in anthropology) He makes far more in a skilled trade than he would have IF he could have found a job in academia.
We've had to hire skilled trades people to work on our house at times and again, we've paid anywhere from $60 to $100 an hour. If there were a 'glut' the rates wouldn't be that high.
I think you live in a depressed area of the country and are generalizing your experience to the rest of the country. The truth is skilled trades people CANNOT be outsourced the way other people can. Even radiological medical work is being outsourced right now - you have people in India reading your x-rays. Lawyers are also looking at their work being outsourced.
What percentage of the population can work at a skilled trade before we have too many skilled trades workers? Yes, we are depressed here in Michigan BUT the percentage of workers needed in each trade is relative. It takes so many customers to support one mechanic, plumber, electrician, med tech, etc, etc, etc... It's all relative. What we have is more unemployed who are going into these programs only to find they have to leave to get a job. The answer is not to train for tech positions. You'd have to do something to create tech jobs first and you can't create tech jobs without first creating other jobs people can earn money at to hire the techs. I don't see kids choosing college over tech programs as being a particular issue here. Tech programs are able to fill their rosters and tech positions get filled.
Programs that need students will recruit students. Those that don't, won't. There is, however, no real need to have voc ed programs in the high schools. Especially if you risk too many students taking the same program and creating a glut of workers. We'd only need programs in the high schools if we had a shortage of workers. I'm not sure why so many of your students are choosing college instead of tech programs. Here, tech programs are popular.
I'm afraid I'm on career #2 that is being outsourced. I predict that education will go on line. Teaching will be outsourced. Sadly, if I want to work, I'm going to have to leave the country. I missed the boat there. I had the chance to go to Austrailia when I graduated from college and decided not to go. Soon, I will have no choice but to leave. I'll have to follow the work.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-04-2011 at 10:32 AM..
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The only way tech schools impact unemployment is if we're training people to fill jobs where there is a shortage of workers. Is there a shortage of trades workers? I can't think of any there are shortages of right now. So many occupations are moving over seas or being automated. 
Soon, I will have no choice but to leave. I'll have to follow the work.
