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Old 11-15-2011, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lije Baley View Post
+1

Saw this happen when I was subbing and heard it from full time teachers. Some of the teachers told me that quite a few of those kids just barely made it into those GT and AP classes & were stressed out trying to "keep up appearances".
For too many students, school is about grades (appearances) instead of learning. These kids crumble when put under pressure. They're too used to everything being easy. I'd rather my kids learn to struggle. That will help them with life.

Pre teaching only works until the parents can't pre teach anymore and then the student is left without the study skills to get the grades they've always gotten because they have learned that they're supposed to learn everything before it's taught and already know it when they get to school and for what? Parental bragging rights?

We need to let our kids be kids. We need to let them learn to learn. We need to step back, let them fall down, figure out how to pick themselves up and get back on their feet on their own.

Other parents think I'm nuts. I don't even look at my kid's grades before report cards come out. It's their grade and their responsibility. They know the consequences of not working up to their ability. We let dd#2 take a fall last year to send the message her grades are hers. This year, she's really pulled her grades up. She figured out that no matter how much she whined, no one was going to do it for her.
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc0789 View Post
And I just don't see the point in not teaching them prior to being formally taught in school, only to have them tutored when they fall behind. Whatever works for you.

Intresting opinion, dumb down your kid so they can be amongst the lower common denominator. When our country is falling behind in academics. Nope, I won't have my children stifled to match low standards, I'd rather focus on increasing the standards to meet my child's academic needs. Granted ... not as easy as your method.
Did that 180 give you whiplash??? There's no need to go to extremes. The alternative to not teaching ahead isn't being behind. Perhaps the child will learn to learn and keep up with the class on their own. Learning how to learn and how to fix your own mistakes are valuable life lessons.

No one is advocating dummying down. You don't have to dummy down to avoid pre teaching. I'm advocating NOT preteaching. Did you ever think that there might be a reason things are taught when they are?

There is NO harm done in not pre-teaching your kids. Believe it or not, they are capable of learning things IN school and it won't hurt them one bit. In fact, it just might help them.

All you to by pre-teaching your child is teach them that school isn't about learning, it's about reviewing what they already know. How do you think THAT will help them to learn good study habits? How do you think you teaching them before the teacher does will teach them to learn? And, more importantly, what's going to happen when you stop pre teaching? When you can't help them anymore? Will they have the skill set they need to do ok?
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lije Baley View Post
And btw, this obviously varies depending on the kid and the others around them, but I think if he/she is way ahead of their classmates, that might end up being the source for teasing and general unpleasantness from some of the other kids. Because of that I have planned that if one of my kids was gifted intellectually, I would have them learn the basics of some type of martial art, probably jiu-jitsu or join the wrestling team for a year. Then make sure to have them wear their team shirt to school every couple of weeks or do a book report on their chosen tail-kicking art to um....."advertise".....their ability. Brains and brawn, which I think is pretty cool all by itself, but would also help keep the jerks from bothering them.

Yep I'm sure some may think such a plan is barbaric, but until we make it to the world depicted in Star Trek and its people-centered Federation government, got to deal with the realities of today. Plus sports like those can teach a person things about themselves that no classroom can, very important and fundamental aspects that can help a person immensely during the course of their life (which is why I wince when seeing another school cancel or make an elective of their P.E. classes).
Actually, there is merit in having them involved in non academic activities that challenge them. There are ways to keep your child busy and engaged without teaching them what all the other kids will learn in 1st grade. And you're right that being in such activities will help them be accepted by their peers. Dd#2 is trying out for ...I can't say it...Ch....Ch....Cheerleading.... My gifted child wants to parade around in short skirts doing back flips. Actually, she's decided she wants a normal high school experience. So she's taking lots of electives to drag out high school (she has a problem in that she entered high school 1 credit shy of being a sophomore so it's either slow down or graduate early) and getting into every activity she can. This is her call. I figure 10 years from now, exactly, zero people will care whether she graduated at 16 or 17 and, who knows, maybe another year to mature before college may help her. Sure I could push her to graduate early and get a year or two of bragging rights out of the deal but what would be the cost to dd?

Seriously, the only value I've ever seen to early teaching is parental bragging rights. I don't know a single child who learned to read early who is, somehow, ahead of the game because they learned to read early (my kids are in high school now).
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Old 11-15-2011, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Southern Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Seriously, the only value I've ever seen to early teaching is parental bragging rights. I don't know a single child who learned to read early who is, somehow, ahead of the game because they learned to read early (my kids are in high school now).
It depends on what you mean by being ahead of the game--I could mention my own dd's but then you'd say I was bragging and besides, I couldn't care less about parental bragging rights. It's not all that satisfying to brag about my kid b/c other people couldn't care less.

My dd's didn't learn ridiculously early but they both learned before kindergarten and read quite a lot before school and later during school and homeschool. The biggest advantage has been enrichment--they have a much broader worldview than any other kids of their age that I know and they're both good and well balanced students. It's silly to say that they're just learning again what they already knew b/c reading is the tool for learning and not the end goal of education. In school they'll read about the basics of American history but at home they'll read a fiction book about someone who lived during a certain period of American history and thus they'll be able to relate more to some of the events that happened. I still remember The Witch of Blackbird Pond quite fondly from elementary school and how it made historical New England come alive for me. If I hadn't read such books I doubt that I could have sustained any interest in history at all, but let's remember that history is the stories of the people, which kids quite certainly forget if they don't read for fun.

Another reason that I see for learning to read early is that kids really poison each other's minds against reading--most of them are convinced that it's not something a sane person would choose to do for fun and once your kids get to school that attitude will often--not always!--rub off and then you'll be fighting with competing interests to get them to read for pleasure, or even for schoolwork.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:33 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
It depends on what you mean by being ahead of the game--I could mention my own dd's but then you'd say I was bragging and besides, I couldn't care less about parental bragging rights. It's not all that satisfying to brag about my kid b/c other people couldn't care less.

My dd's didn't learn ridiculously early but they both learned before kindergarten and read quite a lot before school and later during school and homeschool. The biggest advantage has been enrichment--they have a much broader worldview than any other kids of their age that I know and they're both good and well balanced students. It's silly to say that they're just learning again what they already knew b/c reading is the tool for learning and not the end goal of education. In school they'll read about the basics of American history but at home they'll read a fiction book about someone who lived during a certain period of American history and thus they'll be able to relate more to some of the events that happened. I still remember The Witch of Blackbird Pond quite fondly from elementary school and how it made historical New England come alive for me. If I hadn't read such books I doubt that I could have sustained any interest in history at all, but let's remember that history is the stories of the people, which kids quite certainly forget if they don't read for fun.

Another reason that I see for learning to read early is that kids really poison each other's minds against reading--most of them are convinced that it's not something a sane person would choose to do for fun and once your kids get to school that attitude will often--not always!--rub off and then you'll be fighting with competing interests to get them to read for pleasure, or even for schoolwork.
I mean that you can actually tell the difference in some way. I teach high school. The vast majority of my students are reading where I'd expect them to be. I'm sure some of them were early readers and some of them were late readers. I couldn't tell you which are which.

You don't need to teach reading early for kids to like reading. My dd who started reading at 6 1/2 is an avid reader. Her friend who started reading at 3, was an avid reader in elementary school but isn't now. She'd rather wait for the movie to come out. Her mom keeps asking me how I get dd to read. I don't. Dd just likes to read.

Seriously, if you want your kids to read, let them see you reading. THAT will do more to foster a love of reading than teaching them phonics at 4.
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:34 AM
 
13,254 posts, read 33,523,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
It depends on what you mean by being ahead of the game--I could mention my own dd's but then you'd say I was bragging and besides, I couldn't care less about parental bragging rights. It's not all that satisfying to brag about my kid b/c other people couldn't care less.

My dd's didn't learn ridiculously early but they both learned before kindergarten and read quite a lot before school and later during school and homeschool. The biggest advantage has been enrichment--they have a much broader worldview than any other kids of their age that I know and they're both good and well balanced students. It's silly to say that they're just learning again what they already knew b/c reading is the tool for learning and not the end goal of education. In school they'll read about the basics of American history but at home they'll read a fiction book about someone who lived during a certain period of American history and thus they'll be able to relate more to some of the events that happened. I still remember The Witch of Blackbird Pond quite fondly from elementary school and how it made historical New England come alive for me. If I hadn't read such books I doubt that I could have sustained any interest in history at all, but let's remember that history is the stories of the people, which kids quite certainly forget if they don't read for fun.

Another reason that I see for learning to read early is that kids really poison each other's minds against reading--most of them are convinced that it's not something a sane person would choose to do for fun and once your kids get to school that attitude will often--not always!--rub off and then you'll be fighting with competing interests to get them to read for pleasure, or even for schoolwork.
I have to agree with IT about early reading not meaning anything once you get past elementary school. I've found that reading is often an ah-ha sort of thing once children figure out that this letter/this sound combined with this makes this word, then they are interested in learning more. Of my three kids, all adults now, the one that reads the most was the last to read.

In the grand scheme of things I don't think when a child reads has anything to do with how they turn out.

I think your parenting, Stepka, has more to do with their worldview then anything else. Traveling to new places, talking about world events AND reading about that is what gives a child a "broader worldview", not early reading.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Southern Illinois
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Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
I have to agree with IT about early reading not meaning anything once you get past elementary school. I've found that reading is often an ah-ha sort of thing once children figure out that this letter/this sound combined with this makes this word, then they are interested in learning more. Of my three kids, all adults now, the one that reads the most was the last to read.

In the grand scheme of things I don't think when a child reads has anything to do with how they turn out.

I think your parenting, Stepka, has more to do with their worldview then anything else. Traveling to new places, talking about world events AND reading about that is what gives a child a "broader worldview", not early reading.
I know what both of you mean but the problem is that you guys seem to think that the only reasons people would teach reading early are either to impress other people or to help them get ahead in school. I didn't teach reading for either reason--I taught it b/c they wanted to learn and they had a lot of books and I didn't let them have much TV and I wanted them to be able to entertain themselves with books the same way I did. I still continued to read aloud b/c we all enjoyed that and b/c I could read books that they enjoyed but were too hard for them to read on their own. Anyway, I will repeat myself: I do not believe in pushing a child to read but I also don't believe in holding them back from what they clearly want to learn.

Also, Ivory, I'm glad your dd loves to read and obviously school doesn't kill every child's desire to read, but it does for a lot of them. There are many factors that go into this so I'm not blaming the school system or the teachers but they have some of the responsibility for that also. Probably the biggest factor is other kids--they will hold each other back and they think it's uncool to read--I was grateful for Harry Potter and Twilight b/c they finally made it kind of cool to read again but we have such a long way to go. I don't believe in these motivation programs--kids these days are pretty street-wise and they are quite sure that if we have to bribe them into reading then it can't be that much fun.
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:12 PM
 
13,254 posts, read 33,523,221 times
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I doubt there is a parent on this forum that would say, "Son, there is no way I'm going to teach you to read even though you want to. Go watch tv". Instead, I think most of us are envisioning setting a pre-schooler at a table with flash cards and lined paper for practicing letters. I'm guessing that "teaching" a child to read early is something in between. Certainly any parent that reads to their child with any regularity pointed out the letters, asked the kids to sound out the words, etc. My kids recognized some words before kindergarten and fake read a few books but within a short time in kindergarten they were indeed reading. I truly don't think those few months made any difference. So what formal work does teaching early reading entail?

And I don't think there was any peer pressure to not do well in school, at least not for my tend-to-be geekish kids, who hung out with similar friends. My kids traded books and we all attended library programs. What can I say, I work at a library.
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Southern Illinois
10,363 posts, read 20,797,076 times
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Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
I doubt there is a parent on this forum that would say, "Son, there is no way I'm going to teach you to read even though you want to. Go watch tv". Instead, I think most of us are envisioning setting a pre-schooler at a table with flash cards and lined paper for practicing letters. I'm guessing that "teaching" a child to read early is something in between. Certainly any parent that reads to their child with any regularity pointed out the letters, asked the kids to sound out the words, etc. My kids recognized some words before kindergarten and fake read a few books but within a short time in kindergarten they were indeed reading. I truly don't think those few months made any difference. So what formal work does teaching early reading entail?

And I don't think there was any peer pressure to not do well in school, at least not for my tend-to-be geekish kids, who hung out with similar friends. My kids traded books and we all attended library programs. What can I say, I work at a library.
Ah that 'splains your worldview toobusy. Not that I'd come right out and call you sheltered or anything, but I've been working in schools with a low income clientele for a few years now--one a big city school and one a rural school in the south and I can't imagine many of our parents laying out flash cards. Most of them don't read to the children with any regularity and the vocabulary they use in the home is extremely limited and studies show that having a big vocabulary is the greatest predictor of future success--in learning to read, in school, and later on the job. But again, I had no desire to skip my kids ahead in school--I wanted them to enjoy reading and to take some of the pressure off me by being able to read to themselves--the lit snob's equivalent of parking them in front of the TV.
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stepka View Post
But again, I had no desire to skip my kids ahead in school--I wanted them to enjoy reading and to take some of the pressure off me by being able to read to themselves--the lit snob's equivalent of parking them in front of the TV.
Oh, yeah.

Great posts stepka! (And I know exactly what you mean about bragging rights. Sometimes I have this burning desire to post: Well MY kids.....when someone is letting us know about their family genius. But I don't. Not only do other people not really care but my children deserve their internet privacy and I know what they did! )
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