Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
SO there are private middle and HIGH schools that cost $5k? WHERE??? what type of "private" school is less than $10K a year? Pre school?
PLease provide a list of these schools and tuition charged...are these discount private schools accredited? certified staff? or are they all taught by nuns?
Keep in mind that the rate that is close to that is for those affiliated with the Catholic church.
Note the lack of minorities in the school pictures. Note that religious studies are required, so anyone who is of a different religion or who wants a secular education is not going to want to go to these schools.
Some of the teachers are nuns and brothers and priests which undoubtedly saves them some money.
These are schools where tuition is less because they are subsidized by the Catholic Diocese.
Why not just give the parents of the child an dollar amount for their child that they are free to spend where they like? This is done on Holland, and as a result, over 70 percent of students go to independent schools, and their results are better than the USA.
But here in America we expect the public school system to be the parent of the children as well. We expect them to provide transportation for our children, feed our children, discipline our children, and babysit them.
I have recently changed my opinion about school choice and vouchers. Education is not going to improve with our current public school system without dramatic changes. The only change that can make that happen is competition. Parents must have the ability to enroll their child in a school where they can maximize their learning potential. Public schools do not have competition pushing them to do better and are hampered by state and federal standards for everything they do. After having three children attend two school districts and graduate from public schools, I went back to college and received a teaching degree. I have had the opportunity to do classroom observations, student teaching and sub in various school districts. Some of my observations and conclusions:
1. Most of the teachers are dedicated to their students and try to do a good job.
2. A minority of teachers are poor and hate teaching, but will stay in the field until they retire.
3. Most teachers work less than 7.5 hours a day.
4. Teachers in some school districts in PA as few as 183 days including half days and in-service days. Students are in school between 176 and 180 days, some of which are half days.
5. Most teachers think they work much harder than they do and don't realize they don't work nearly as hard or as long as people in other professional careers.
6. Discipline in schools has eroded over time and is poor in most schools.
7. Computers are vastly overrated in schools and the bulk of computer usage in schools is playing games.
8. Some educational programs on computers are extremely effective such as math and science programs.
9. Many students graduate from high school without the ability to do basic arithmetic.
10. Students are not learning basic arithmetic in elementary school because they don't memorize math facts such as multiplication tables and don't spend enough time on repetition.
11. Students are not learning basic math because they start learning geometry and algebra in 3rd grade.
12. School districts are not teaching students what they need because of the state and federal standards.
13. Secondary students who have struggled with math have to move on to algebra I, algebra II, geometry and other more advanced math classes. Students who are in special education must also take these classes since they must take the PSSA tests and in the future will be taking the Keystone tests.
14. Inclusion rules mean your child's education could be disrupted by a child who should not be in a classroom with normal children. How can a teacher teach effectively with students in the class who won't stay in their seat or remain quiet?
15. The trend away from tracking in schools severely hurts the educational attainment of students. There are students who want to learn placed in the same classroom room with disruptive students who could care less about the subject. An article from Wikipedia Tracking (education) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states it clearly. "Detracking has been proven to reduce the achievement of students who would otherwise be placed in in high-track classes. Parents of high-ability students and other proponents of tracking say that academically gifted students should have access to classes that maximize their potential. Detracking holds back high-ability students because teachers must reduce the amount and complexity of material so that all students in the class, including low-ability students, can understand it.Putting all students together in a heterogeneous group makes the teacher's job more difficult by increasing the range of performance of the students in a class."
16. The amount of time that is devoted to PSSA testing disrupts the second half of the school year for those grades taking the tests. Here is a typical schedule for this school year:
Pennsylvania State Assessment (PSSA)
Math/Reading
March 12-23
Grades: 3-8, 11
Writing
April 16-20
Grades: 5, 8, 11
Science
April 23-27
Grades: 4, 8, 11
Students do not take tests the entire day and the schedule varies from day to day as far as hours of testing.
I'm sure many people, especially teachers, will disagree with some of my observations and conclusions. I was someone who believed in and attended public schools, and sent my children to public schools. Today's schools are not the schools I attended in the 60's and 70's. Today's schools should be doing a much better job with smaller class sizes, computers, smartboards, classroom aides, guidance counselors, Title 1, learning support, ESL and other "special" teachers. I have had the opportunity to observe and work as a substitute teacher in elementary and secondary schools in three counties. I'm not reporting my observations from one school or one district. I have spent time in K-12 grades and in most subject areas. And from everything I hear, Pennsylvania does a better job with public schools than most states.
So why are our public schools failing?
1. The schools are missing the big picture of what is important. All students need to be able to read effectively and understand basic math. These are skills everyone needs on a daily basis. I suggest looking at the information PA has provided in their Standards Aligned System, which is, "The Curriculum Framework specifies what is to be taught for each subject." See http://www.pdesas.org/module/sas/curriculumframework/
2. Don't try to teach subjects beyond the grasp of students. Special education students should not be forced to learn quadratic equations.
3. Don't hold back students who want to learn. Go back to tracking and give students the opportunity to take classes where they are sufficiently challenged but not overwhelmed.
4. School districts are forced to spend too much time in testing. What is the College SAT test 3 hours and 45 minutes but students spend weeks taking the PSSA? I believe testing is important and it is the only way to determine if students are meeting certain educational attainments, but how much testing is necessary to determine if students are making necessary progress?
Last edited by villageidiot1; 02-04-2012 at 10:29 AM..
Note the lack of minorities in the school pictures. Note that religious studies are required, so anyone who is of a different religion or who wants a secular education is not going to want to go to these schools.
Some of the teachers are nuns and brothers and priests which undoubtedly saves them some money.
These are schools where tuition is less because they are subsidized by the Catholic Diocese.
Not necessarily true and if you lived in the area, you would know better. Same for those of a different religious background. Trust me, both schools get a range of kids from urban minorities(mostly Black) to upper middle class suburban Whites. I personally know Black people that went to both schools and that are not catholic. I'm talking about attending these schools from the 1970's until now. You can get financial aid for both schools too.
Also, here is a program that has a history of allowing some inner city, minority kids to attend Catholic schools in the area: http://www.guardianangelsocietysyr.org/
I have recently changed my opinion about school choice and vouchers. Education is not going to improve with our current public school system without dramatic changes. The only change that can make that happen is competition. Parents must have the ability to enroll their child in a school where they can maximize their learning potential. Public schools do not have competition pushing them to do better and are hampered by state and federal standards for everything they do. After having three children attend two school districts and graduate from public schools, I went back to college and received a teaching degree. I have had the opportunity to do classroom observations, student teaching and sub in various school districts. Some of my observations and conclusions:
1. Most of the teachers are dedicated to their students and try to do a good job.
2. A minority of teachers are poor and hate teaching, but will stay in the field until they retire.
3. Most teachers work less than 7.5 hours a day.
4. Teachers in some school districts in PA as few as 183 days including half days and in-service days. Students are in school between 176 and 180 days, some of which are half days.
5. Most teachers think they work much harder than they do and don't realize they don't work nearly as hard or as long as people in other professional careers.
6. Discipline in schools has eroded over time and is poor in most schools.
7. Computers are vastly overrated in schools and the bulk of computer usage in schools is playing games.
8. Some educational programs on computers are extremely effective such as math and science programs.
9. Many students graduate from high school without the ability to do basic arithmetic.
10. Students are not learning basic arithmetic in elementary school because they don't memorize math facts such as multiplication tables and don't spend enough time on repetition.
11. Students are not learning basic math because they start learning geometry and algebra in 3rd grade.
12. School districts are not teaching students what they need because of the state and federal standards.
13. Secondary students who have struggled with math have to move on to algebra I, algebra II, geometry and other more advanced math classes. Students who are in special education must also take these classes since they must take the PSSA tests and in the future will be taking the Keystone tests.
14. Inclusion rules mean your child's education could be disrupted by a child who should not be in a classroom with normal children. How can a teacher teach effectively with students in the class who won't stay in their seat or remain quiet?
15. The trend away from tracking in schools severely hurts the educational attainment of students. There are students who want to learn placed in the same classroom room with disruptive students who could care less about the subject. An article from Wikipedia Tracking (education) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states it clearly. "Detracking has been proven to reduce the achievement of students who would otherwise be placed in in high-track classes. Parents of high-ability students and other proponents of tracking say that academically gifted students should have access to classes that maximize their potential. Detracking holds back high-ability students because teachers must reduce the amount and complexity of material so that all students in the class, including low-ability students, can understand it.Putting all students together in a heterogeneous group makes the teacher's job more difficult by increasing the range of performance of the students in a class."
16. The amount of time that is devoted to PSSA testing disrupts the second half of the school year for those grades taking the tests. Here is a typical schedule for this school year:
Pennsylvania State Assessment (PSSA)
Math/Reading
March 12-23
Grades: 3-8, 11
Writing
April 16-20
Grades: 5, 8, 11
Science
April 23-27
Grades: 4, 8, 11
Students do not take tests the entire day and the schedule varies from day to day as far as hours of testing.
I'm sure many people, especially teachers, will disagree with some of my observations and conclusions. I was someone who believed in and attended public schools, and sent my children to public schools. Today's schools are not the schools I attended in the 60's and 70's. Today's schools should be doing a much better job with smaller class sizes, computers, smartboards, classroom aides, guidance counselors, Title 1, learning support, ESL and other "special" teachers. I have had the opportunity to observe and work as a substitute teacher in elementary and secondary schools in three counties. I'm not reporting my observations from one school or one district. I have spent time in K-12 grades and in most subject areas. And from everything I hear, Pennsylvania does a better job with public schools than most states.
So why are our public schools failing?
1. The schools are missing the big picture of what is important. All students need to be able to read effectively and understand basic math. These are skills everyone needs on a daily basis. I suggest looking at the information PA has provided in their Standards Aligned System, which is, "The Curriculum Framework specifies what is to be taught for each subject." See Curriculum Framework
2. Don't try to teach subjects beyond the grasp of students. Special education students should not be forced to learn quadratic equations.
3. Don't hold back students who want to learn. Go back to tracking and give students the opportunity to take classes where they are sufficiently challenged but not overwhelmed.
4. School districts are forced to spend too much time in testing. What is the College SAT test 3 hours and 45 minutes but students spend weeks taking the PSSA? I believe testing is important and it is the only way to determine if students are meeting certain educational attainments, but how much testing is necessary to determine if students are making necessary progress?
I have a question for you. How do "most" teachers get their planning,prepping, teaching and grading done in less than 7.5 hours per day? My duty day is 7.5 hours but you'll find me working in my room an hour and a half after school almost every day. I then follow that up with about 1-2 hours of planning and grading each night and still have work to do over the weekend. I'd love to figure out how to do this job in 7.5 hours per day but I can't even get close to that. I keep hearing about this mythical creature called teachers who work only their duty hours but I have yet to actually meet one.
FTR, I was an engineer for the 20 years before becomming a teacher and I've done the math. I work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer. I entered the profession assuming that my hours would be close to the hours I was putting in while working full time as an engineer and going to grad school at night and it's pretty close. I just forgot that I'd still be in grad school at night in order to keep my cert...UGH (I ASSumed that my masters degree in chemical engineering would count towards my plus 30 but it doesn't count for anything so I have to take, at least, one class per year to keep my cert.).
Having come out of industry, I have to disagree on competition, between schools, being the solution to what ails education. What works in industry will not work in education because it is a different animal. The problem here is that education is a long term process not a product that is on the shelves in the market, that you can compare side by side and buy the best one, AND it is determental to children's educations to switch schools on them too many times. Schools are dynamic. You cannot assume that if you start your child in kindergarten today, they will get the same education that the seniors who are graduating this year received. There are 13 years between kindergarten and graduation and much can change in 13 years from superintendents, school boards, curriculum, teachers, funding, demographics, etc, etc, etc... A low performing district, today, could be working on improvements that will make them a high performing district by the time today's kindergarteners will graduate while a high performing district may be changing demographics because people are being attracted to the area and start falling off. (I teach in a great district but we are seeing a change in demographics because people are moving into the area that is likely to change things over the next decade.)
The best approach is to select a school and try to work with that school. As a teacher, the thing I see really wrong with education is that we do not hold our students accountable for their own learning. Failure is never their fault. We blame the teacher. Success, however, gets credited to the parents and the student . If you compare the US to countries that where education works, you'll find one major difference (besides the length of the school year) and that is the attitude of students. Education is a privilidge not a right in many countries. They are not trying to pass the bottom of the class at all cost. They're fine with them flunking out and options are limited if students do flunk out. As a result, students work to get educated. Here, we're pushing a rope. It's everyone's job except the student to educate the student.
The only place competition will work in education is if students are competing to get into the best schools. Unfortunately, we'd never stand for that kind of education. We expect education to be handed to our students not earned.
I agree with you on tracking. That's a form of making students work for what they get. Unfortunately, that is taboo in our culture where every child is special and we're worried about Johnny feeling bad about himself because Suzy made the high track and he didn't.
IMO, one thing schools do need is common final exams. Every student should have to pass the same test to get credit for the same class. Having common standards is not enough unless you are testing to those standards. I have no issue with teaching to the test if the test actually assesses what should be taught in the class. While state test scores tell us how kids are doing in a district, there is no way to see if they are doing better under one teacher than another because they look only at the cumulative picture. Common finals would look at each individual class.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-04-2012 at 11:19 AM..
Finally. The state of education has consistently deteriorated since the federal government and the Dept. of Education was created (1980). Decisions about education belong with PARENTS. Let parents decide where to spend their money for their child's education as they see fit. I can't wait to get the government out of our kids' schools.
Finally. The state of education has consistently deteriorated since the federal government and the Dept. of Education was created (1980). Decisions about education belong with PARENTS. Let parents decide where to spend their money for their child's education as they see fit. I can't wait to get the government out of our kids' schools.
What will you do about parents who decided not to spend money on their child's education? You are operating on the assumption that every parents cares. Trust me, they don't all care. Some will choose to spend as little as possible on education (assuming it's still required) and spend the rest on a new car.Which is why the government got into education in the first place. Not every parent values education for their kids. Not every parent can afford an education for their kids. As a tax payer, I am opposed to parents being handed money intended for education and spending it as they see fit.
I'm not sure how I feel about open enrollment. I'm not sure it solves anything. We have that option with charter schools now and it would, probably, be best to wait a few years and see whether the existance of charter schools has any actual impact on education. But I do think that parents should be able to choose a private school to get the state money for educating their child as long as that school is not associated with a religion (I believe in separation of church and state) when the home district is a failing district. That's the one part of NCLB I actually agree with.
Charter schools are a mixed bag. Like most schools, they tend to do as well as their demographic would indicate. Because they attract parents who actually care about education for their kids, they tend to be a little better than their feeder districts but by removing their kids they make the feeder district poorer. One child now benefits at the expense of another who had the misfortune to be born to parents who don't care or can't afford to do anything about their situation (While charter schools are free, you, often lose the local bus to pick your kids up for school. We had to drive our dd's several miles to a central pick up point and that is just not an option for many working parents. You can't drop your kids off in a parking lot at 6:00 AM for bus pick up at 7:30 because you need to be at work by 7:00.)
I wish I knew what the solution was. The only thing I can see that would help would be a radical shift in attitude towards education. Too many of our kids view it as something to be tolerated and resisted. When the teacher's first job is policing behaviors, education is second and second rate. The charter school I worked for saw a, significant, jump in science scores the two years I taught there (dropped right back where it was when I left) but I was not the teacher for the job because I couldn't keep on top of the behavior issues. I'm in a school where the norm is for students to care about grades now (few care about learning but holding the grade up as a carrot works) and I can actually teach. I still have some behaviors to police but, most of the time, I just have to call home (calls home when I was in the charter school were useless as the parents were most likely to either blame me or excuse the student's behavior or deny it ever happened....). If my only option had been schools like the charter school, test scores or not, I would have had to get out of teaching. I can't be effective in a disruptive classroom. (not surprisingly, I was the 5th chemistry teacher in 10 years and they've had two more in the two years since I left).
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-04-2012 at 12:02 PM..
i dont know but i want the kids to be able to go to school w/o betting mugged and raped. i want the teachers to be able to go to school w/o being mugged and raped.
i want the kids to learn to read and write. not how to become a gangbanger.
k12 is a giant social experiment gone south
voucher sooner the better.
if ALEC can do it, let them.
I have a question for you. How do "most" teachers get their planning,prepping, teaching and grading done in less than 7.5 hours per day? My duty day is 7.5 hours but you'll find me working in my room an hour and a half after school almost every day. I then follow that up with about 1-2 hours of planning and grading each night and still have work to do over the weekend. I'd love to figure out how to do this job in 7.5 hours per day but I can't even get close to that. I keep hearing about this mythical creature called teachers who work only their duty hours but I have yet to actually meet one.
I have noticed when subbing at different schools, there are many times I am one of the last people leaving the building. At an elementary school the other day, there were four cars in the parking lot when I left. At least two probably belonged to the janitors. In the some of the secondary schools where I sub, teachers are supposed to stay until 3:30 but many leave shortly after the students are dismissed at 2:36. I understand what you are saying about how much time a teacher could put in. When I student taught, I quickly realized I was only capable of grading so much in a timely manner. I started checking all homework and with 120 students, it became too much to also plan lessons. I would do the same thing you described and there would only be one other teacher who ever stayed late.
FTR, I was an engineer for the 20 years before becomming a teacher and I've done the math. I work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer. I entered the profession assuming that my hours would be close to the hours I was putting in while working full time as an engineer and going to grad school at night and it's pretty close. I just forgot that I'd still be in grad school at night in order to keep my cert...UGH.
Having come out of industry, I have to disagree on competition, between schools, being the solution to what ails education. What works in industry will not work in education because it is a different animal. The problem here is that education is a long term process not a product that is on the shelves in the market AND it is determental to children's educations to switch schools on them too many times. Schools are dynamic. You cannot assume that if you start your child in kindergarten today, they will get the same education that the seniors who are graduating this year received. There are 13 years between kindergarten and graduation and much can change in 13 years from superintendents, school boards, curriculum, teachers, funding, etc, etc, etc... A low performing district, today, could be working on improvements that will make them a high performing district by the time today's kindergarteners will graduate while a high performing district may be changing demographics because people are being attracted to the area and start falling off. (I teach in a great district but we are seeing a change in demographics because people are moving into the area that is likely to change things over the next decade.)
ivorytickler,
I understand what you are saying and I agree. But imagine this scenario. A teacher at your school coaches a sports team. Doesn't matter what sport, could be football, basketball, tennis, swimming, etc. Because of competition, that coach will do off-season and pre-season conditioning. He might enter his team in a summer league or encourage them to participate on an AAU team in the off-season. He will only cancel practice in case of emergency. He will practice the maximum amount of time he possibly can and rarely end practice early. He will drive to scout opposing teams and watch film of their games to in preparation for an upcoming game. He will search the internet looking for new coaching strategies, conditioning methods, etc. He will attend off-season coaching clinics at his own expense and purchase coaching books at his own expense. Now this same coach is also a full time teacher; does he put the same effort into his day job? This is what I mean by competition. Worrying about what the other guy is doing and whether your methods are falling behind.
The best approach is to select a school and try to work with that school. As a teacher, the thing I see really wrong with education is that we do not hold our students accountable for their own learning. Failure is never their fault. We blame the teacher. Success, however, gets credited to the parents and the student . If you compare the US to countries that where education works, you'll find one major difference (besides the length of the school year) and that is the attitude of students. Education is a privilidge not a right in many countries. They are not trying to pass the bottom of the class at all cost. They're fine with them flunking out and options are limited if students do flunk out. As a result, students work to get educated. Here, we're pushing a rope. It's everyone's job except the student to educate the student.
The only place competition will work in education is if students are competing to get into the best schools. Unfortunately, we'd never stand for that kind of education. We expect education to be handed to our students not earned.
Aren't students competing to get into the best colleges? I have heard of pre-school kids interviewing to get into the best pre-schools.
I agree with you on tracking. That's a form of making students work for what they get. Unfortunately, that is taboo in our culture where every child is special and we're worried about Johnny feeling bad about himself because Suzy made the high track and he didn't.
The bottom line is most people work only as hard as they have to to survive. Doesn't matter if it is private industry, government, education, or if you are a teacher or student.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. If you compare the US to countries that where education works, you'll find one major difference (besides the length of the school year) and that is the attitude of students. Education is a privilidge not a right in many countries. They are not trying to pass the bottom of the class at all cost. They're fine with them flunking out and options are limited if students do flunk out. As a result, students work to get educated. Here, we're pushing a rope. It's everyone's job except the student to educate the student. 
