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If a group contingency in a high school class really makes some people not want to live in society, there's a LOT more going on that warrants attention. The fact that suffering a consequence due to the behavior of somebody else in your high school chemistry class might send some student into an epic, life-altering meltdown is EXACTLY the reason that basic life lessons, including "sometimes, things aren't fair" aren't bad to incorporate on occasion. "We all got in trouble in chemistry, even though I didn't dooooo anything," is definitely not something that a well-adjusted student should be having a hemorrhage over.
Yes, this has little to do with the classroom. It has a lot more to do with LIFE. You know, that thing out there for which school is supposed to be preparing you. Welcome to not existing in a vacuum.
I find that remark about a "hemorrhage" highly offensive, and only serves to substantiate my point that those who support group punishment are callous would-be bullies who don't give a hoot about anyone other than themselves. Here's an example of group punishment: the Holocaust.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 04-22-2012 at 05:00 PM..
Reason: removed orphaned word in quote
If you knew me, and the population of students with whom I work, you would probably realize that the term "bully" is not one which has ever been or ever will be applied to me. But since you don't, I'll just chalk it up to the reality that there are those who find sometimes-harsh realities of life to be on par with being bullied. The majority of my students deal with such harsh realities in their day to day existence as it is that the whole class not earning something because one person messed it up for everybody really doesn't register as a massive injustice of life. I'm sure it does for some populations. The fact remains that I, personally, feel that group contingencies and group consequences are sometimes appropriate and effective. They aren't if they're overused, but there are times when they serve a valuable purpose.
Some of you don't feel that way. How wonderful to live in a world where we can have different opinions!
If you knew me, and the population of students with whom I work, you would probably realize that the term "bully" is not one which has been or ever will be applied to me. But since you don't, I'll just chalk it up to the reality that there are those who find harsh realities of life to be on par with being bullied. The majority of my students deal with such harsh realities in their day to day existence that the whole class not earning something because one person messed it up for everybody really doesn't register as a massive injustice of life. I'm sure it does for some populations. The fact remains that I personally feel that group contingencies and group consequences are sometimes appropriate and effective. They aren't if they're overused, but there are times when they serve a valuable purpose.
Some of you don't feel that way. How wonderful to live in a world where we can have different opinions!
How would they be effective? Last time I checked, group punishment never was effective on me. It just made me not want to be around there at times. For me, it is a personal issue of "what helps me". To me it registers as an injustice because if I'm a student and I'm in the classroom, I'm in it for ME and no one else. It is a massive injustice because what it teaches, at least in my opinion, that it doesn't matter if you do the right thing or not, because your future is contingent on someone else". It rules out individual responsibility, which is what children should actually be learning. Students need to learn individual responsibility.
I find that remark about a "hemorrhage" highly offensive, and only serves to substantiate my point that those who support group punishment are callous would-be bullies who don't give a hoot about anyone other than themselves. Here's an example of group punishment: the Holocaust.
There are probably some who would consider the connection with the holocaust into this discussion highly offensive too. However, the holocaust is still not a good analogy.
There are probably some who would consider the connection with the holocaust into this discussion highly offensive too. However, the holocaust is still not a good analogy.
I agree, let's keep the Holocaust out of this discussion.
And there are, of course, ample opportunities to learn and practice individual responsiblity in school, just as there are times when it's necessary to be part of a group, and a different sort of learning experience that's no less valid or necessary.
Everyone deals with group discipline. It is a part of living in a COMMUNITY. There are benefits to living in a community and negatives. But some of the people on here whining about "group discipline" also want all of the benefits of the community.
And acknowledging the usefulness of the occasional use of group discipline does not make someone "fond" of it, a bully or a nazi. Can we have a tiny bit of rationality please?
1.An act of intimidating a weaker person to do something, especially such repeated coercion.
2.Persistent acts intended to make life unpleasant for another person.
Sound familiar?
Also, on Mr. Poll, 4 out of 5 people said that group punishment was immoral, so people like you are very much in the minority.
Oh and BTW, "life isn't fair" is often used by people to excuse bullying at school and in the workplace.
Here's a better example of group punishment: the Intolerable Acts. I suppose that Ikb0714 and TabulaRasa would have accepted them and remained under British rule. Which would have made them traitors/quislings.
Last edited by youngireland; 04-23-2012 at 10:20 AM..
1.An act of intimidating a weaker person to do something, especially such repeated coercion.
2.Persistent acts intended to make life unpleasant for another person.
Sound familiar?
Also, on Mr. Poll, 4 out of 5 people said that group punishment was immoral, so people like you are very much in the minority.
Oh and BTW, "life isn't fair" is often used by people to excuse bullying at school and in the workplace.
Polls rely on random sampling, which means you could get anyone. However, I do see the point you're making.
On the other hand, it is that 1/5 who could be running things.
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