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g_m, I really don't understand your vociferous oppostion to judicious use of group punishment and your constant attempts to discredit what others who have used or seen this method have to say about it. For first graders, the threat of not going on the Safeway field trip worked. For an older group, something else would have worked. That was just an example. And yes, some kids don't care what the others think. Then you discipline that person. Just because once or twice you feel you were unfairly punished b/c of group punishment, that doesn't mean the method is useless.
I am just very cynical about it. I tend to think about the unfairness of it because of how adolescents think. It worked on first graders because of the way a 6 year old thinks.
You know just because something works that doesn't make it right. I am sure that the threat of poisoning would work also, but it's wrong. Wrong is wrong whether it works or not.
It is wrong to punish the entire group because a teacher is unable to figure out what really happened. It is not as important that SOMEBODY be disciplined as it is that the discipline be administered fairly and consistently. I know someone will chime in and say "life is not fair" but I think that justice should be fair even if everything in life is not. How do you expect kids to respect a system when the system is disrespectful to them?
Oh, for Pete's sake, poisoning! You have made the rest of your post irrelevant.
You have some awfully high expectations of a teacher, super-human, in fact. Sometimes it is impossible to figure out "who started it". It's not always the person the teacher thinks started it. Sometimes kids get punished inappropriately b/c the teacher thinks they know who started the misbehavior. That, in fact, happened to me once in jr. high. Was that "justice"? (I have not, in fact, spent the rest of my life ruminating over this situation, like some on this board apparently have with discipline they received decades ago. Discussing this issue brought it back to me.)
You know just because something works that doesn't make it right. I am sure that the threat of poisoning would work also, but it's wrong. Wrong is wrong whether it works or not.
It is wrong to punish the entire group because a teacher is unable to figure out what really happened. It is not as important that SOMEBODY be disciplined as it is that the discipline be administered fairly and consistently. I know someone will chime in and say "life is not fair" but I think that justice should be fair even if everything in life is not. How do you expect kids to respect a system when the system is disrespectful to them?
Justice is not fair. Never has been. I can't take a pair of knitting needles on a plane because someone else might use them as a weapon. I can't take a whole bottle of shampoo either because someone else might try to smuggle explosives on board. I can't buy a 30 day supply of allergy medication because someone else uses it to make meth. I pay higher prices at the store because some people steal. Where do you think justice is fair?
I teach chemistry. I've had problems with someone damaging equipment in labs. Solution, no more labs. Are my classes happy? Nope but I can't conduct labs when some students insist on damaging things so nobody gets to do labs. Today I gave a quiz in one of my classes because they couldn't stay on task yesterday. Guess what happened after the quiz???? Surprise, surprise, no issues with staying on task today. The only issue I had is one student got sent to the office because he wanted to argue about me giving a quiz.
Sorry but mass discipline works. That's why it's used. Last time I looked poisoning didn't work so it's not used.
I don't understand the connection. The kids who were misbehaving know about the quiz because they were there. The ones who were out don't know about it and likely will do poorly. How is this going to keep the ones who were misbehaving from doing so again?
The ones who weren't there don't have to take the quiz. I wouldn't expect them to know the material yet.
How it keeps the ones who are misbehaving from doing it again is quite simple. The kids police themselves because they don't want future pop quizzes. It actually works quite well.
The ones who weren't there don't have to take the quiz. I wouldn't expect them to know the material yet.
How it keeps the ones who are misbehaving from doing it again is quite simple. The kids police themselves because they don't want future pop quizzes. It actually works quite well.
I am just very cynical about it. I tend to think about the unfairness of it because of how adolescents think. It worked on first graders because of the way a 6 year old thinks.
Actually, the reason it works on adolescents is they know it's unfair and they take it out on the causes of the problem. They won't rat out their friends but they'll give them a piece of their mind when they think a teacher isn't listening. What you're missing is they don't, usually, get mad at the teacher. They get mad at the student who caused the problem.
Today, I was trying to review material and several students wanted to talk instead so I said, "Obviously, you don't need a review so let's move on....". You should have seen how fast the rest of the class shut up the talkers.
Actually, the reason it works on adolescents is they know it's unfair and they take it out on the causes of the problem. They won't rat out their friends but they'll give them a piece of their mind when they think a teacher isn't listening. What you're missing is they don't, usually, get mad at the teacher. They get mad at the student who caused the problem.
Today, I was trying to review material and several students wanted to talk instead so I said, "Obviously, you don't need a review so let's move on....". You should have seen how fast the rest of the class shut up the talkers.
It might work, and then sometimes it doesn't. The pop quiz is one thing. It might work. On the other hand, you have some kids who just don't care. And I wasn't like most kids. I was the type who would have ratted you out in a heartbeat. In fact, in one situation I described, I was all too willing to rat out the kids who were causing noise. My teacher didn't want to hear it and punished ALL who were around the situation, including me. In the situation of a pop quiz, it might work. In the situation where you have kids who are known for misbehaving, who don't care who gets in trouble, who don't care about anything, those kids will cause trouble for the whole class. I tend to lean in favor of sorting out the troublemakers and nipping them in the bud right then and there. Group punishment MIGHT work on adolescents, just not as well. Adolescents are more defiant and tend to thrive more on controlling whoever is in authority.
Why does a kid disrupt class? Because that kid thinks his stuff is more important than what the class lesson is. He thinks his socializing is more important than the class learning anything.
Oh, for Pete's sake, poisoning! You have made the rest of your post irrelevant.
Not at all. If you threatened to poison the kids I am sure it would make them behave. However, just because it works, that does not make it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
You have some awfully high expectations of a teacher, super-human, in fact. Sometimes it is impossible to figure out "who started it". It's not always the person the teacher thinks started it. Sometimes kids get punished inappropriately b/c the teacher thinks they know who started the misbehavior. That, in fact, happened to me once in jr. high. Was that "justice"? (I have not, in fact, spent the rest of my life ruminating over this situation, like some on this board apparently have with discipline they received decades ago. Discussing this issue brought it back to me.)
I have actually worked in a classroom. I don't think teachers need to have superhuman powers to be fair.
Justice is not fair. Never has been. I can't take a pair of knitting needles on a plane because someone else might use them as a weapon. I can't take a whole bottle of shampoo either because someone else might try to smuggle explosives on board. I can't buy a 30 day supply of allergy medication because someone else uses it to make meth. I pay higher prices at the store because some people steal. Where do you think justice is fair?
I teach chemistry. I've had problems with someone damaging equipment in labs. Solution, no more labs. Are my classes happy? Nope but I can't conduct labs when some students insist on damaging things so nobody gets to do labs. Today I gave a quiz in one of my classes because they couldn't stay on task yesterday. Guess what happened after the quiz???? Surprise, surprise, no issues with staying on task today. The only issue I had is one student got sent to the office because he wanted to argue about me giving a quiz.
Sorry but mass discipline works. That's why it's used. Last time I looked poisoning didn't work so it's not used.
Are you really allowed to teach Chemistry without labs?
I don't see classroom rules that maintain equipment and safety in the same category as mass discipline. I also don't see having laws that protect the safety of the general public in the same category as mass discipline in schools. There have to be rules and procedures that protect the general public and that make the classroom function well.
However, when rules are broken the person breaking the rule should bear the consequences. If you don't know who did it, then you don't know. You can't always know. It is not appropriate to punish 25 kids when you know that 5 are guilty.
In your case (quiz) the kids who are the most disadvantaged are the ones who cannot possibly be guilty because they were not even there. The kids who are guilty were there and know about the quiz. The ones that were out don't know about it and are more likely to get a low grade as a result of your mass discipline.
Not at all. If you threatened to poison the kids I am sure it would make them behave. However, just because it works, that does not make it right.
I have actually worked in a classroom. I don't think teachers need to have superhuman powers to be fair.
I have as well. Surprised? I taught teen parenting back in the early days of my career.
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