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Well, my intention is to educate and protect the class. Why doesn't that count? If it is fair to not allow me to knit on a plane, it's fair for me to not allow students who weren't part of the misbehavior to have a privlidge pulled. They're the same thing.
You're just twisting things to make mass discipline in the classroom different from mass discipline used everywhere else. Whatever...
I am not. How is arbitarily giving them a pop quiz protecting them? Also, you can do other things on a plane besides knitting, so that isn't really a punishment. I'd expect to hear such sentiments from a drill sergeant rather than a teacher. This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that those in favour of group punishment lacked consideration for anyone else other than themselves. Yet you accuse green mariner of being "selfish" for not wanting to be punished for someone else's mistakes. Consider also that if G.P. was really as effective as you say it is, why is it being banned in more and more schools? Even the Air Force frowns on it.
You also skimmed over the vast majority of my post. Please answer my question properly.
I am not. How is arbitarily giving them a pop quiz protecting them? Also, you can do other things on a plane besides knitting, so that isn't really a punishment. I'd expect to hear such sentiments from a drill sergeant rather than a teacher. This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that those in favour of group punishment lacked consideration for anyone else other than themselves. Yet you accuse green mariner of being "selfish" for not wanting to be punished for someone else's mistakes. Consider also that if G.P. was really as effective as you say it is, why is it being banned in more and more schools? Even the Air Force frowns on it.
You also skimmed over the vast majority of my post. Please answer my question properly.
Thank you.
IMO, those who believe group punishment should be in their teaching "bag of tricks" are using an easy way out. There are other ways to eliminate behavior that are effective.....they aren't as "quick and dirty", but they preseve integrity of both teachers and students....and they work.
Very rarely is there a situation in my classroom where "punishment" is even necessary. 99% of potential misbehavior is PREVENTED through effective classroom management techniques.... I closely observe and monitor students, and intervene BEFORE anything gets out of hand and requires punitive intervention.
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that those in favour of group punishment lacked consideration for anyone else other than themselves.
The same might be said of those who choose to disrupt class and hinder the learning process in ways that affect everyone, no? Really, when you get right down to it, a severely behaviorally disruptive student is doing a darned good job already of inflicting a pretty significant mass punishment on everyone else in the class.
IMO, those who believe group punishment should be in their teaching "bag of tricks" are using an easy way out. There are other ways to eliminate behavior that are effective.....they aren't as "quick and dirty", but they preseve integrity of both teachers and students....and they work.
Very rarely is there a situation in my classroom where "punishment" is even necessary. 99% of potential misbehavior is PREVENTED through effective classroom management techniques.... I closely observe and monitor students, and intervene BEFORE anything gets out of hand and requires punitive intervention.
There are ABSOLUTELY ways to eliminate unwanted behavior that are 100% effective...working in applied behavior analysis, I know behavioral extinction principles like the back of my hand.
However, finding a public school that is set up to support these principles with consistency? Not so much. The traditional model most public schools are built around don't really allow for it.
Everyone operates under the constraints of their system. Many people here have posted about how their various school systems do and do not support various forms of discipline, and how they are pressured constantly to avoid consistently carrying out disciplinary procedures, because doing so makes administrators' workloads distastefully heavy, and causes headaches when dealing with parents, etc. Fortunately, I work in a system that advocates and 100% supports consistent implementation of iron-clad individualized behavioral support plans. I can do that, I work exclusively with behavioral disorders, and all of my policies and procedures are established with that as a frame of reference. Most teachers in typical classrooms in typical public schools cannot count on this same level of support, unfortunately. Their systems are not equipped.
All too often, the typical teacher in the mainstream setting is often either not given the tools necessary to effectively manage behavior, resulting in tied hands, or is given them in theory, but not practice. I have been party in a consultation role to many situations where the policies look good on paper, and are given lip service by the administration, but when it comes time to apply them and carry them out, the teacher is dissuaded from doing so, or not upheld and supported. It's hard to stand when your legs are cut from under you.
The same might be said of those who choose to disrupt class and hinder the learning process in ways that affect everyone, no? Really, when you get right down to it, a severely behaviorally disruptive student is doing a darned good job already of inflicting a pretty significant mass punishment on everyone else in the class.
Indeed you are correct, though a teacher is supposed to have a bit more maturity than a student. I am not condoning misbehaviour in the classroom. I simply believe that there are more ethical ways to discipline students which benefit both sides. Re individual punishments, the teacher's authority is strengthened ( if they see wrongdoers being punished, they won't do it themselves), while students are treated fairly. A win-win situation, don't you think? Stooping down to the level of the disruptive student is not effective at all.
There are ABSOLUTELY ways to eliminate unwanted behavior that are 100% effective...working in applied behavior analysis, I know behavioral extinction principles like the back of my hand.
However, finding a public school that is set up to support these principles with consistency? Not so much. The traditional model most public schools are built around don't really allow for it.
Everyone operates under the constraints of their system. Many people here have posted about how their various school systems do and do not support various forms of discipline, and how they are pressured constantly to avoid consistently carrying out disciplinary procedures, because doing so makes administrators' workloads distastefully heavy, and causes headaches when dealing with parents, etc. Fortunately, I work in a system that advocates and 100% supports consistent implementation of iron-clad individualized behavioral support plans. I can do that, I work exclusively with behavioral disorders, and all of my policies and procedures are established with that as a frame of reference. Most teachers in typical classrooms in typical public schools cannot count on this same level of support, unfortunately. Their systems are not equipped.
All too often, the typical teacher in the mainstream setting is often either not given the tools necessary to effectively manage behavior, resulting in tied hands, or is given them in theory, but not practice. I have been party in a consultation role to many situations where the policies look good on paper, and are given lip service by the administration, but when it comes time to apply them and carry them out, the teacher is dissuaded from doing so, or not upheld and supported. It's hard to stand when your legs are cut from under you.
A very reasoned analysis, if I may say so. So what you're saying is that it is more of a matter of resources than anything else. Fair point, though I'm not so sure that it justifies G.P. . Still though, many public school systems have banned G.P. so I'm not so sure that it is the matter of resources that is the problem. This is interesting (I'm Irish, so my knoweldge of the US education system is not great). I look forward to hearing more from you.
As a matter of fact, it wasn't "deacdes ago", it was as recently as last year, and am only now beginnig to get over it. Also, I admit that other factors, not just the group discipline might have contributed (though that's not to say it didn't affect me). Anyway, I don't think momma bear's point is irrelevant, it's common sense. You wouldn't lock up a whole neighbourhood if there was a murder would you? That would be illegal!
I wasn't really referring to you but some others. You are fairly new to this thread. It was decades ago that I was in jr. high, when I was punished singly, for something that another party started.
As someone said, a neighborhood can be on lockdown after a murder, also curfews can be imposed. While these are for public safety, one could make the argument that people who live in the lockdown/curfew area are being "punished" for something they didn't do.
Not all discipline is punishment. Mass discipline is everything from expectations for the group to all of the examples given here.
Every effective teacher uses group discipline whether or not they use punishment. And let's be very clear. Everyone supporting the appropriate use of group discipline is talking about only punishing in specific situations. Not one person has suggested using it when you can actually identify individual students. That is a strawman if I ever heard one.
But two years ago a student stole potentially dangerous chemicals off the other teachers desk while she was working with other students. She stopped the lab, made all of the kids return to their desks and told them they would sit there until it was returned (she had them immediately before lunch). Yes I am sure students uninvolved were irked but since she had no way of knowing that is just too bad. Ten minutes into lunch three children told the student who had stolen it to turn himself in it they would. He turned himself in.
There is literally nothing else to be done in some cases. It isn't possible to have a teacher teaching the lab techniques and policing the cart at all times. I see why some teachers have to cut out labs entirely if you are going to tie their hands and not let them use group discipline as in this case.
Not all discipline is punishment. Mass discipline is everything from expectations for the group to all of the examples given here.
Every effective teacher uses group discipline whether or not they use punishment. And let's be very clear. Everyone supporting the appropriate use of group discipline is talking about only punishing in specific situations. Not one person has suggested using it when you can actually identify individual students. That is a strawman if I ever heard one.
But two years ago a student stole potentially dangerous chemicals off the other teachers desk while she was working with other students. She stopped the lab, made all of the kids return to their desks and told them they would sit there until it was returned (she had them immediately before lunch). Yes I am sure students uninvolved were irked but since she had no way of knowing that is just too bad. Ten minutes into lunch three children told the student who had stolen it to turn himself in it they would. He turned himself in.
There is literally nothing else to be done in some cases. It isn't possible to have a teacher teaching the lab techniques and policing the cart at all times. I see why some teachers have to cut out labs entirely if you are going to tie their hands and not let them use group discipline as in this case.
As you point out discipline and punishment are not the same thing.
Not one person has suggested using it when you can actually identify individual students. That is a strawman if I ever heard one.
Fair play to you (I'm being honest, not sarcastic). We do have some common ground after all.
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If it is fair to not allow me to knit on a plane, it's fair for me to not allow students who weren't part of the misbehavior to have a privlidge pulled. They're the same thing.
So what you're saying is that it is more of a matter of resources than anything else. Fair point, though I'm not so sure that it justifies G.P. . Still though, many public school systems have banned G.P. so I'm not so sure that it is the matter of resources that is the problem. This is interesting (I'm Irish, so my knoweldge of the US education system is not great). I look forward to hearing more from you.
