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Well it is an issue. Your undeserved tardy might be just one of several given by teachers that hold groups responsible for the actions of individuals.
One undeserved tardy will not result in a detention. It takes three. The only way it's an issue is if the student already has two and the end justifies the means here. My students no longer get out of their seats 5 minutes before the hour ends and they know if they don't pay attention, I will take the time back they took from me during the hour during their passing time. Period.
I can see the merit in group punishment in some situations. In elementary school, I remember one teacher who would not dismiss us for recess until the whole room was quiet, and kids would shush one another so that we got every second to play outside. Likewise, we wouldn't be let out for the day until everyone was seated, so there were always hisses of, "Jenny, sit down!" and "Brian, sit down so we can go!" Group punishment is not a good idea in all scenarios, but in others I think it can be very effective.
On the other side of the coin, what about group rewards? A teacher might give a special treat like a long recess or fun game after hearing a great report from a substitute teacher ... do any parents begrudge the treat being given to all kids? My elementary school collected soup labels, and one year I brought in a fat roll of them that my great-grandma had been collecting for years. My class won easily, and we got an ice cream party even though my labels alone would have won. My son's school collects box tops, and I send in a few hundred several times a year (I get a lot from my job). If his class wins, they all get a pizza party, even the kids who brought none.
Group rewards and punishments have their place. Just as no one wants to be the kid who costs the whole class 10 minutes of recess, it's great to be the kid who scores everybody a pizza party.
Last edited by JustJulia; 02-20-2012 at 05:56 PM..
I can see the merit in group punishment in some situations. In elementary school, I remember one teacher who would not dismiss us for recess until the whole room was quiet, and kids would shush one another so that we got every second to play outside. Likewise, we wouldn't be let out for the day until everyone was seated, so there were always hisses of, "Jenny, sit down!" and "Brian, sit down so we can go!" Group punishment is not a good idea in all scenarios, but in others I think it can be very effective.
This is exactly a scenario I do use in my classroom, but I don't call this group punishment. As the OP, my referral to mass discipline was real discipline/punishment that was doled out to all students, making them distrust teachers and believe their good behavior didn't matter because they got in trouble anyway.
I believe in positive peer pressure when it is to encourage kids to behave immediately. But I don't consider this punishment or discipline. The post about the teacher who may not have seen the bad behavior, and other students thinking they can get away with it if it goes unpunished? Students are watching us vvveeerrryyy carefully; they WANT us to effectively handle classroom trouble-makers, and not by punishing everyone.
And I didn't mean to offend IvoryTickler and I apologize if I did; I think it is entirely effective to not give class time to do work....if that works for you and that is your choice. I guess your comment that "it is what it is" was perceived by me in concert with many of your other posts in this forum about how kids seem to be a lost cause.
I like the example of "mass discipline" that justjulia used.... I have seen that work. BUT mass punishment, I don't think so. Being a hyper-discplined child I was the victim of many of these growing up, resented every one. finally in 7th grade I had had enough. The teacher gave us a "write something X amount of times" punishment to do at home. I purposely did NOT do it - then came in the next day and when the teacher asked us to hand it in. I gave her a piece of my mind - as 12 year old child I did this!! I have to admit it took some nerve.... I just told her, I didn't do it because I NEVER EVER do anything bad and there was NO WAY I was EVER going to do assignments like that. I do not think that my parents ever found out about that "showdown"... and That teacher never gave us another "mass punishment"... finally she went after the 6 out of control boys that always started everything. duh!!
So is that the standard? If a teacher doesn't actually harm anyone they can do whatever they want to do regardless of whether it is right or wrong?
When my son was in 1st grade he had a teacher who took recess away from the entire class if any one person did not finish their morning work. My son came home from school and told me that he didn't think that they would ever have recess again because there would always be someone that didn't finish their morning work. He also told me that there would always be somebody that did not finish so it didn't really matter if he did his work. In other words, a 6 year old figured out that it didn't matter if he did what he was supposed to do because he was going to be in trouble anyway.
Do you treat your children that way? If you had multiple teens with licenses would you take driving rights away from all of them because one got a speeding ticket?
I wouldn't punish a student- or a class- for not finishing morning work.
When you do your class detention do you ever think of what the repercussions are to the kids that didn't do anything wrong? Are they missing a practice, game, music lesson, time from work? Are there some kids that get in trouble for having detention, with no questions asked from their parents? Did you know that some coaches implement severe consequences on kids who have to serve detention regardless of why they had to serve? Do you ever stop to think about how your actions affect students?
At our school kids lose points off of their final grade if they have more than 2 tardies in a quarter. I would raise holy heck if my child lost points off of his final grade in math because a teacher decided to hold him over in chemistry for something that has nothing to do with him. It just isn't appropriate.
I have a feeling you would raise holy heck regardless.
I can see the merit in group punishment in some situations. In elementary school, I remember one teacher who would not dismiss us for recess until the whole room was quiet, and kids would shush one another so that we got every second to play outside. Likewise, we wouldn't be let out for the day until everyone was seated, so there were always hisses of, "Jenny, sit down!" and "Brian, sit down so we can go!" Group punishment is not a good idea in all scenarios, but in others I think it can be very effective.
On the other side of the coin, what about group rewards? A teacher might give a special treat like a long recess or fun game after hearing a great report from a substitute teacher ... do any parents begrudge the treat being given to all kids? My elementary school collected soup labels, and one year I brought in a fat roll of them that my great-grandma had been collecting for years. My class won easily, and we got an ice cream party even though my labels alone would have won. My son's school collects box tops, and I send in a few hundred several times a year (I get a lot from my job). If his class wins, they all get a pizza party, even the kids who brought none.
Group rewards and punishments have their place. Just as no one wants to be the kid who costs the whole class 10 minutes of recess, it's great to be the kid who scores everybody a pizza party.
My students know that I will hold them over if their behavior results in my not getting to where I want to be in the lecture (If I didn't do this, I have kids who would make a game of trying to see how much they can get the lesson off track. I had this problem until I started saying "If we have to stay over to finish this, we will...". All of a sudden the questions intended to derail the lesson were getting shushed by the kids not me.). There are times when it works and times when it is just necessary. I've told one of my classes that if there are ANY more disruptions during labs we will stop doing labs. I have to count on EVERYONE to do what they're supposed to be doing during labs or we can't do them. I don't consider this a group punishment. I consider it a natural consequence of disruptive behavior.
And you clearly think that those of us on this forum are that type of teacher. I will remember that in the future.
I think the type of teacher who thinks it is important to punish someone just so that someone gets punished is that type of teacher. I have no idea whether that is you, or any other teacher on this forum.
I think the type of teacher who thinks it is important to punish someone just so that someone gets punished is that type of teacher. I have no idea whether that is you, or any other teacher on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
In the instance IT gave? When someone in the class poured chemicals on her and ALL of the students chose to protect that student?
ABSOLUTELY.
The life and health of one person is more important than sports, or whatever else your SSF is missing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
If that ONE won't man up and none of the others will "tell on him" then they all need to be taught a real life lesson. Aiding and abetting in real life is a crime, is it not ?
These still apply.
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