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Old 02-22-2012, 05:16 PM
 
6,066 posts, read 14,993,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
At my school the expectation is that students are in school first and foremost for academic reasons. There would never be the expectation that labs, tests, etc be rearranged so kids can do sports or play in a band. How is that remotely fair that your child gets to take the test on a different day? To me that is just ridiculous.
We've dealt with four different schools systems plus one private school during the time that our kids have been in school. (We've relocated quite a bit for husbands job.)

All the schools we've dealt with encourage the kids to pursue extracurriculars - especially music. And also, the schools often rearrange schedules for things like jog-a-thons, neighborhood bike rides, triathalons, music performaces, visiting artists, visiting theater troupes, field trips to symphony performances and theater performances, etc.

This past school year the vice principal of my youngest sons middle school actually recommended that my son drop an academic class so that he could participate in a band class that my son was interested in taking. (His schedule was too full... so it was either one or the other...) The VP went on and on about how music teaches things and does things for childrens brains that nothing else can do...

I really don't believe that putting academics first and foremost above all else is a healthy way of approaching education. Of course they are important, but I wouldn't want my children in an environment like that. We know several families who have moved here from Korea so that their children escape that sort of thing... they have found American schools to be more well-balanced. I prefer a more well-balanced approach as well, I think it's healthier for the kids.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:26 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,637,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
What do they do at your school when a child has to miss class for a school related activity? For instance, both of my sons made All County Orchestra. There was an all day rehearsal on the day of the concert. It involved all schools, public, private and charter in the entire county. Students are permitted to miss class for school activities.
Yes, they can leave at the teachers' discretion. But the only excused absences in every school I have worked in were medical, bereavement, etc. Not EXTRACURRICULAR. And make no mistake, just because it is part of the school does not make it an ACADEMIC activity.

Quote:
Lots of sports teams have to leave school early. So does debate, drama, music, etc.....How do they handle that at your school? Do they never have school related activities that require students to leave during the day? It's common around here and every public, private and charter school has this happen.
Every school I have worked in had specific rules for this. If it is a non-curricular activity, like all the ones you have given, students cannot go if they have an exam, lab, etc. I coach multiple teams. I have had students not be able to go to competitions due to academic conflicts. Academics always come first.

Quote:
I just don't understand. How does the school handle it when things like that happen?
Kids do not leave out school for games or other extracurricular activities when they have academic conflicts, like exams or really any time a teacher deems it inappropriate. That is as it should be. Kids are in school for an education, not to do extra curricular activities.

Quote:
So what happens when a student is on a school related activity and has to be out of school? They just fail their work for the day?
Depends. If it is a curricular activity, board policy at all 4 schools I have worked in allow for makeups for activities that can be made up (i.e. labs) and alternate assignments were not.

But I have had students who left my last period class early to go to a game and missed a quiz. They get a zero. Why wouldn't they? Why should they get special treatment just because they are an athlete?

Quote:
My youngest son won the National History Day competition for his school. He is competing at the district level on March 1. He will be leaving, along with all the kids that are participating in districts at 9AM and will miss all his classes that day.
Sounds like a curricular activity.

Quote:
My oldest son is on the wrestling team, football team, and lacrosse team. They sometimes leave school early depending on where an event is and when it is being held. These are considered excused absences from class. The work is still due. Tests must be taken. But they are excused from class.
So just because your child is CHOOSING to participate in a sport he gets to take a test AFTER all the other kids? How is that fair?

Maybe I have such an issue with this because I teach a lab class. If a student misses a lab, I have to give up my lunch and prep for two days for them to make it up. If every one of my students who is an athlete did this, I would never have a prep, or my 20 min lunch. I get you feel YOUR child is entitled to special treatment but do it for one, and every parent would demand it. That is ridiculous.

Quote:
This is not an attitude issue. The kids don't make the schedules for the sports teams so that they can irritate the teachers. If a kid is on a team and the team has to leave early the kid is excused. It's not a free for all. The kid can't just decide he's not going to class. I am not talking about practices but rather games, which the kids don't schedule. Practices are held after school.
SO according to you, sports are more important than class. That is not true at my school. If there is something like an exam. Our kids can leave, but they get a zero. Life is full of hard choices. If you are choosing sports OVER academics you should expect that to be reflected in the grade you earn

Quote:
Our school does not do labs during class time. They are scheduled after school and students are assigned certain days. Most athletes just get to practice late on days they have labs. The school is a private, college prep school full of over acheivers. The kids take school seriously and do not blow off their labs for practice.
I teach in one of top schools in the nation. It is a school of choice. Maybe that is part of it. But at the regular public school, make up labs were not given for kids leaving for sports. It is not the teacher who should have to sacrifice for sports. That is ridiculous as well.

Quote:
If they have a game on their scheduled lab day they have to get together with the teacher to figure out what other day they can do the lab. Most teachers have a whole bunch of different days, some even on Saturday morning. However, they cannot just show up, they have to make arrangements with the teacher to make sure there is space for them. My sons are both are heavily involved in school activities and have not had problems rescheduling things.
Wow, so the teachers are supposed to sacrifice their time so kids can play sports. I would not do that. No wonder kids think sports come first. Your entire schools has proven to them that sports come first.

Quote:
Most of the time if they need to take a test/quiz at a different time they do it at lunchtime (most early dismissals are after lunch) or during the teacher's regularly scheduled extra help times. If the teacher has a class during a student's independent (free) hour sometimes they just take the test with the other class. My kids have even gone in early to take tests.
Early is the only acceptable time. Anything else is a violation of academic integrity.

Quote:
It has truly not ever been a problem at our school. I think you are thinking that kids just blow off school to go to wrestling. That's not what happens. But there are lots of school related activities that happen during school hours.
Same with us. But our school puts academics first. It is amazing what a school can accomplish when that simple idea is the underpinings of the entire system.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,503 posts, read 4,532,673 times
Reputation: 3026
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyolady View Post
I know this topic has been addressed in these forums before, but I continue to encounter teachers who discipline large groups of students for the poor choices of a few. I will AGAIN ask teachers to please do their jobs and NOT use this ineffective practice, and I will give you perspective as a teacher and parent.

Twice last week, my daughter was disciplined for the behavior of other students. In one case, two students woudn't quit messing around during student work time on a very important project where students were preparing for a state competition. The teacher stopped ALL students, told them they couldn't use the time to prepare their projects, that they ALL would have to do it on their own time and gave them busy bookwork (lengthy handout). When some students asked why all students were being penalized, the teacher got upset and said "because Tommy and Johny couldn't behave, so maybe all of you will learn to behave". Huh?

A 2nd time, two students were talking during a teacher lecture. The teacher kept ALL students after class, making them tardy to their next class. In our school, students are disciplined for every tardy. Again, students politely asked why all of them, and she said they rise and fall as a group. Again, huh?

As a classroom teacher myself, I tried this approach years ago. But polite parents pointed out that it isn't the job of fellow students to keep other students in line. She also pointed out that adults in the workplace are rarely penalized for the ill-behavior of others, and she is right. I've never been disciplined at work for the behavior of other teachers. I also learned that my well-behaving students started to NOT behave. When I asked them what was up, they told me that even though they behaved, they still got in trouble. In fact, the students who didn't behave felt more powerful because their choices got other students in trouble.

Does any of this make sense? I believe teachers who do this either have no idea how to get students under control, are too lazy to take the time to discipline the students who deserve it, or are very ill-informed that in the end, this doesn't work. Oh, might I mention it also fosters distrust on the part of ALL students? I would love to hear from teachers who can justify it under any circumstances.
Mass is one tool when used properly and at the right and situation. I used it and has worked. Is spanking a child in school right or wrong? Some say yes and others say no. To me it is a tool that when properly used can produce positive effects. However, this as with mass discipline, it tends to be those issues that people have their views on the issue and no matter what anybody says, people are set in their views and no one will be convince of either way. Take care.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:39 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,637,209 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by haggardhouseelf View Post
We've dealt with four different schools systems plus one private school during the time that our kids have been in school. (We've relocated quite a bit for husbands job.)

All the schools we've dealt with encourage the kids to pursue extracurriculars - especially music. And also, the schools often rearrange schedules for things like jog-a-thons, neighborhood bike rides, triathalons, music performaces, visiting artists, visiting theater troupes, field trips to symphony performances and theater performances, etc.

This past school year the vice principal of my youngest sons middle school actually recommended that my son drop an academic class so that he could participate in a band class that my son was interested in taking. (His schedule was too full... so it was either one or the other...) The VP went on and on about how music teaches things and does things for childrens brains that nothing else can do...

I really don't believe that putting academics first and foremost above all else is a healthy way of approaching education. Of course they are important, but I wouldn't want my children in an environment like that. We know several families who have moved here from Korea so that their children escape that sort of thing... they have found American schools to be more well-balanced. I prefer a more well-balanced approach as well, I think it's healthier for the kids.
1. A Band class is an academic course.
2. Extracurriculars are great. We encourage them as well, and frequently our kids are all state athletes, quiz bowl champs, etc. Just because school comes first does not mean there is no room for anything else. Weird how the statement "academics come first" elicits a knee jerk reaction.

But it is really clear to me now that we do not REALLY value education in this country, we value SPORTS. When you tell a student "skip the labs, tests, whatever so you can go to the game" you are showing kids what really is important and it isn't class.

The irony is I let kids go all the time for activities, but when I have a test, or a lab that is difficult to make up, I say no. And it is 100% respected by the kids, their parents, and the administration. I had never really attributed it to our success before but I am now thinking it is a key component.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: TX
32 posts, read 61,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
WOW.

Just WOW.

At my school the expectation is that students are in school first and foremost for academic reasons. There would never be the expectation that labs, tests, etc be rearranged so kids can do sports or play in a band. How is that remotely fair that your child gets to take the test on a different day? To me that is just ridiculous.

Make ups are only allowed for medical reasons, with a doctors note. If a child told me they were missing my quiz or test for an EXTRACURRICULAR reason, I would give them a zero. It is not an excused absence in any school I have ever taught in.

Tomorrow, I am going to go in and tell my students how much I appreciate them and their attitude towards school. They ASK if it is possible to miss my class for anything extracurricular, and if I have a test or lab that day, they do not go, and do not complain about it.
New here, but just had to laugh at this. Last year I did my student teaching in a Pre-AP World Geography class in Texas, and can't remember a day that at least one student wasn't out for something. (Soccer, band, academic competitions, jazz ensemble, plays, cooking competitions, etc.) I could not believe all of the stuff scheduled during the school day, which did not seem to happen when I was back in school in the 80's. We didn't have an option of allowing them to do make-up work, it was expected by the Administration.

ETA: I want to clarify that I did not agree with letting students out for all of this. Unfortunately, I can say that sports are definitely emphasized over academics here in Texas.

Last edited by CinV; 02-22-2012 at 05:51 PM.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:46 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,637,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinV View Post
New here, but just had to laugh at this. Last year I did my student teaching in a Pre-AP World Geography class in Texas, and can't remember a day that at least one student wasn't out for something. (Soccer, band, academic competitions, jazz ensemble, plays, cooking competitions, etc.) I could not believe all of the stuff scheduled during the school day, which did not seem to happen when I was back in school in the 80's. We didn't have an option of allowing them to do make-up work, it was expected by the Administration.
Not the standard in NJ. Even in regular schools, if a student isn't doing C work or better, they don't leave class for any reason.

If they are, it is teacher discretion for work that can be made up.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons our school is doing so well. The school first mentality permeates our whole school.

Two years ago one of my academic teams won a national contest. One of the prizes was a trip abroad. It was scheduled for a week of school time. Our kids fought with the organization tooth and nail to have it moved to the summer because they did not want to miss classes.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:49 PM
 
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So, speak to this teacher and share your wisdom.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:38 PM
 
13,975 posts, read 25,829,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Not the standard in NJ. Even in regular schools, if a student isn't doing C work or better, they don't leave class for any reason.

If they are, it is teacher discretion for work that can be made up.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons our school is doing so well. The school first mentality permeates our whole school.

Two years ago one of my academic teams won a national contest. One of the prizes was a trip abroad. It was scheduled for a week of school time. Our kids fought with the organization tooth and nail to have it moved to the summer because they did not want to miss classes.
We are from NJ, and that simply isn't true in many schools, including private ones. My son played baseball for his private high school. Not every school has a lighted field. If school gets out at 3:00, and there is an hour's travel time, there may not be enough time to get the full game in safely.

We have lived in three states now, always in high-performing school districts. My sons have been excused for numerous extra-curricular activities, including multi-day trips. They made up whatever coursework they missed. Schools often base their reputation on the performance of things other than academics.

But, the original topic: I have interceded when I have felt a class was improperly punished for the actions of a few. Not always, but a few times. To me, it seems the lazy way out.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:08 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,637,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
We are from NJ, and that simply isn't true in many schools, including private ones. My son played baseball for his private high school. Not every school has a lighted field. If school gets out at 3:00, and there is an hour's travel time, there may not be enough time to get the full game in safely.

We have lived in three states now, always in high-performing school districts. My sons have been excused for numerous extra-curricular activities, including multi-day trips. They made up whatever coursework they missed. Schools often base their reputation on the performance of things other than academics.
Were the grades at a C or better? Was it at the teachers discretion? I suspect yes to both for the public schools. Private schools can do whatever they want.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:42 PM
 
3,269 posts, read 9,905,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Not the standard in NJ. Even in regular schools, if a student isn't doing C work or better, they don't leave class for any reason.

If they are, it is teacher discretion for work that can be made up.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons our school is doing so well. The school first mentality permeates our whole school.

Two years ago one of my academic teams won a national contest. One of the prizes was a trip abroad. It was scheduled for a week of school time. Our kids fought with the organization tooth and nail to have it moved to the summer because they did not want to miss classes.
I'm in NJ too, and I agree that this just isn't true...well not in my school district anyway.
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