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Old 04-09-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
Reputation: 990

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
You are wrong, again.

You are claiming that if a student took the SAT they do not take the ACT. That is wrong. The top kids in most schools take BOTH based on geography.

Please provide evidence for your claim that over 50% of students in Arizona take college bound tests. Hell prove that even 50% of students in AZ are college bound.

Here let me help you.


HigherEdInfo.org: College-Going Rates of High School Graduates - Directly from High School

Not even 45% of AZ students go on to college of any kind let alone a 4 yr school. And you are claiming that 25% take the SAT and another 30% take the ACT. That means 55% of AZ kids are taking tests for 4 yr programs and then not going???

Notice AZ dead last at number of kids going on to college.

Oh and some more fallacies on your part. More kids in AZ take the SAT than ACT.

ACT (test) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So really it isn't about being "open-minded" its about understanding what the numbers really mean. And maybe a little bit about academic honesty.
Is it really that difficult for you to only comment on what I say and not extrapolate?

First off according to the link below Arizona is not "dead last". They are in the bottom 5 most years but not dead last.

HigherEdInfo.org: College-Going Rates of High School Graduates - Directly from High School

I NEVER said "more kids in AZ take the SAT than the ACT". I said they are taken about evenly. My estimate was 20% - 30% take the ACT based on the fact that 26% took the SAT. Please at least quote me accurately. But of course quoting me accurately would take you actually reading what I write, which I'm beginning to see that you have no intent of actually doing.
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:51 PM
 
17,170 posts, read 21,558,764 times
Reputation: 17437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
These tests are not national tests; they are state created. Anecdotally, I have heard that Texas has a fairly easy test. (I did hear this from a reliabel source, a person who helped create the CO tests.)
The TAKS in Texas is a joke. The new STAARS test though is much more difficult.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:55 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Is it really that difficult for you to only comment on what I say and not extrapolate?

First off according to the link below Arizona is not "dead last". They are in the bottom 5 most years but not dead last.

HigherEdInfo.org: College-Going Rates of High School Graduates - Directly from High School

I NEVER said "more kids in AZ take the SAT than the ACT". I said they are taken about evenly. My estimate was 20% - 30% take the ACT based on the fact that 26% took the SAT. Please at least quote me accurately. But of course quoting me accurately would take you actually reading what I write, which I'm beginning to see that you have no intent of actually doing.
You are still WRONG. Clearly 30% do not take the ACT.

Do you have any evidence that remotely suggests that 26% of AZ students take the SAT and a DIFFERENT 20% takes the ACT? Any at all? Or is this more guessing?

Because if you do not than the problem remains. The top 25% is being compared to the top 80% in other states. If you cannot understand why that is flawed than you clearly have no understanding of even basic mathematics.

Anyway you slice it AZ is one of the worst states for public education in this country. All your "guessing" has not shown otherwise.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
You are still WRONG. Clearly 30% do not take the ACT.

Do you have any evidence that remotely suggests that 26% of AZ students take the SAT and a DIFFERENT 20% takes the ACT? Any at all? Or is this more guessing?

Because if you do not than the problem remains. The top 25% is being compared to the top 80% in other states. If you cannot understand why that is flawed than you clearly have no understanding of even basic mathematics.

Anyway you slice it AZ is one of the worst states for public education in this country. All your "guessing" has not shown otherwise.
I did not say that 30% take the ACT. I've posted two different links that show 26% of Arizona students taking the SAT. I taught in Arizona for 6 years so I taught a few hundred kids that took one of the two tests. Based on my experience there was about a 50/50 split between the two tests. Some of them did take both, but not most of them. But I'm sure you know more than I do about what tests Arizona kids take.

I've already stated that I understand the numbers are skewed when 80% of students in one state take it versus 25% in another.

Both of these points you spent your valuable time trying to refute you could have simply READ my previous posts and saved your energy. But once again you are so ready to bash me that you don't read what I write.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,351 posts, read 115,686,197 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
You are still WRONG. Clearly 30% do not take the ACT.

Do you have any evidence that remotely suggests that 26% of AZ students take the SAT and a DIFFERENT 20% takes the ACT? Any at all? Or is this more guessing?

Because if you do not than the problem remains. The top 25% is being compared to the top 80% in other states. If you cannot understand why that is flawed than you clearly have no understanding of even basic mathematics.

Anyway you slice it AZ is one of the worst states for public education in this country. All your "guessing" has not shown otherwise.
How is this clear? If 48% (or so) of AZ students go directly to college, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that at least 30% took the ACT, which is the preferred test in the mountain west?
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:31 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
How is this clear? If 48% (or so) of AZ students go directly to college, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that at least 30% took the ACT, which is the preferred test in the mountain west?
Actually more kids take the SAT than ACT in Arizona as shown in one of the links I provided.

The OP claims that 26% take the SAT and ANOTHER 20-30% of kids take the ACT. In reality it is likely that there is a huge overlap of the top kids taking BOTH the ACT and SAT.

And based on that it is comparable to compare the AZ SAT Score with the similar percentage of top scores in other states. The OP says this is not comparable correct because a separate group is taking the ACT. If you are confused by my explanation I apologize as I am confused by the reasoning as well.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:33 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
I did not say that 30% take the ACT. I've posted two different links that show 26% of Arizona students taking the SAT. I taught in Arizona for 6 years so I taught a few hundred kids that took one of the two tests. Based on my experience there was about a 50/50 split between the two tests. Some of them did take both, but not most of them. But I'm sure you know more than I do about what tests Arizona kids take.

I've already stated that I understand the numbers are skewed when 80% of students in one state take it versus 25% in another.

Both of these points you spent your valuable time trying to refute you could have simply READ my previous posts and saved your energy. But once again you are so ready to bash me that you don't read what I write.
Nothing you have shown suggests there is a 50/50 split. Except your "guess".

It isn't about bashing it is about the utterly ridiculous fallacy upon fallacy on which you based this entire thread.

First, you want to compare the SAT scores of the top 25% kids in a state when the national average percentile tested is much higher. Obviously that is flawed. It isn't SKEWED its WRONG.

Second, you keep making ridiculous claims without any support. That isn't bashing either. You started this thread. Obviously you should back up your claims.

Unless, you are now acknowledging that SAT/ACT scores are not a valid measure?
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:45 PM
 
28,901 posts, read 51,937,421 times
Reputation: 46538
Well, the SAT average isn't a valid measure, chiefly because it is not the standard test in a large number of states, only taken by a smaller percentage of students. As a result, Alabama and Arkansas totally smoke Massachusetts on SAT scores.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:03 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Well, the SAT average isn't a valid measure, chiefly because it is not the standard test in a large number of states, only taken by a smaller percentage of students. As a result, Alabama and Arkansas totally smoke Massachusetts on SAT scores.
^ Gets it
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Actually more kids take the SAT than ACT in Arizona as shown in one of the links I provided.

The OP claims that 26% take the SAT and ANOTHER 20-30% of kids take the ACT. In reality it is likely that there is a huge overlap of the top kids taking BOTH the ACT and SAT.

And based on that it is comparable to compare the AZ SAT Score with the similar percentage of top scores in other states. The OP says this is not comparable correct because a separate group is taking the ACT. If you are confused by my explanation I apologize as I am confused by the reasoning as well.
So I'm not allowed to make assumptions but you can assume that "there is a huge overlap in kids taking both tests". Where do you get this from? These tests cost money. Why would you take both tests unless you were planning on going out of state to attend school? I guess in Iowa where only 3% of the kids take the SAT, there just must be a group of underachievers that only see the need for one entrance exam. Where as in Arizona, the bastion of ****ty education, their students are paying to take both tests. Yeah that makes a lot more sense than the theory that they are taken equally based on my living in the state for 40+ years and teaching in it for 6.

The link you provided only states that Arizona is not one of the states that have more students taking the ACT in 2006. It also does not indicate how many more. Here are the facts:

1. 26% of Arizona students take the SAT (this has been confirmed by two different links I posted).

2. In 2008 51.4% of Arizona high school graduates went directly to college (also confirmed by a website, not sure if I posted the link so I'll post it here again).

HigherEdInfo.org: College-Going Rates of High School Graduates - Directly from High School

3. In states such as Iowa where the ACT is the test that the state universities require, only 3% of students took the SAT (also confirmed in a link I posted earlier). Those students were probably those that you spoke of earlier that are applying to prestigious institutions.

So if we do that math and assume that about 5% of students take both tests in Arizona that would still leave over 20% taking the ACT to reach the total of 51%. Now I know the math is not perfect, but you have to see that the likelihood is clear that over 20% of Arizona students take the ACT. The only way it's not that high is if a bunch of them are going to college without taking either.
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