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Old 04-10-2012, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
First, what the hell does IOWA have to do with anything?

Second, more kids take the SAT. It is the norm in AZ. Therefore compare that 25% to the top 25% of test takers in any other state. It is the only thing fair. Because you cannot support YOUR CLAIM (I did not make the intial assertion YOU DID) that they are separate groups. The person making the claim is the one who needs to support it. You didn't because you cannot.

Third, if you are assuming all of the college bound students in AZ are going to 4 yr schools you are off your rocker. As a matter of fact the three public universities in AZ do not even require EITHER test to get in.

University Entrance Exams (ACT and SAT) | Arizona Indicators

Pretending the AZ school system is a quality one is pointless. A third of the kids drop out of high school, among those who do graduate and do go onto college of any kind, less than 20% get a degree. Its sad at best.

Raising Expectations – November 2011 | Expect More Arizona

In school systems like those in AZ denying the existence of a problem makes it impossible to fix it.
I'm tired of repeating myself. For pete's sake I even numbered things to try and make it easier for you. I'm not going to keep typing the same things, it gets annoying. If you want to understand what Iowa has to do with then go read what I wrote again. Then keep reading it until you get it. It's called an EXAMPLE.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Well, I would say that using the ACT/SAT scores would be intellectually honest because if a state isn't graduating a 1/3 of it's students, there is a huge problem there and perhaps there is a good reason the "Midwest" is critical of AZ education, especially since the "Midwest" has graduation rates in the 90 something percent. Only at the worst schools here, and even then only a handful of schools, do you see stats like you posted about AZ. If you only want to look at the top 25% of SAT/ACT test takers, AZ falls even farther down the list since, again, in the "Midwest" 80-90% of all graduates take one test or the other (or both). Those top 25% in our state eclipse the top 25 in AZ by 237 points on the SAT. That is a HUGE differential, especially if you are only looking at the top students.
Almost 8% of Arizona residents are illegal immigrants. When you consider that most elderly people are citizens, that number jumps even higher when you are talking about students. So in Arizona it's safe to say that over 10% of the students are products of a household where English is not spoken, and the parents are in fear of deportation. This does not even include the second generation of Mexican-Americans who are citizens but were brought up in a family that came over here from Mexico. So to blame the Arizona education system on lower graduation rates is very unfair.

My whole point in all of this is simply to state then when looking at ACT and SAT scores, there is no evidence to suggest that kids in Arizona are less prepared for college than their counterparts in other states. Unfortunately the data, due to percentages of kids in each state that take the test, also does not give solid evidence that Arizona preforms as well as the scores initially indicate.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,719 posts, read 29,517,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Sort of a thread hijack isn't it?

State spending per pupil is not consistent across states in how it is measured.
"Since not all states prescribe the use of the above financial accounting handbook and its definition of instruction for their school systems, some interstate disparities exist"

Additionally, it ignores the different costs of living in each area. COL is MA is significantly higher than TX.
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

So if the average cost of living is 100 (Sperlings system not mine) in the US then MA is 132 and Texas is 88. That means COL in MA is 150% higher than texas (132/88) and its cost per pupil (14118/8540) is 163% higher. So really the only comparision is does the 13% difference (163-150) accounted for by an increase in scores. And it appears to be.

Is that 13% worth it ($1308 more per student btw when you control for cost of living). Well MA has a higher graduation rate (81% vs. 75%) and more kids go to college. So that may have to be personal value choice on how much you value those students who graduated who likely wouldn't have otherwise.
MA better graduation rates can be predicted by its demographics alone. I don't think it has anything to do with school quality.

Last edited by Yac; 04-11-2012 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,719 posts, read 29,517,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
These tests are not national tests; they are state created. Anecdotally, I have heard that Texas has a fairly easy test. (I did hear this from a reliabel source, a person who helped create the CO tests.)
Do a little more research please. From the NAES website:

"The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) is the largest nationally representative and continuing assessment of what America's students know and can do in various subject areas. Assessments are conducted periodically in mathematics, reading, science, writing, the arts, civics, economics, geography, and U.S. history.

Since NAEP assessments are administered uniformly using the same sets of test booklets across the nation, NAEP results serve as a common metric for all states and selected urban districts. The assessment stays essentially the same from year to year, with only carefully documented changes. This permits NAEP to provide a clear picture of student academic progress over time."

NAEP - Overview
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:09 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,102,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Almost 8% of Arizona residents are illegal immigrants. When you consider that most elderly people are citizens, that number jumps even higher when you are talking about students. So in Arizona it's safe to say that over 10% of the students are products of a household where English is not spoken, and the parents are in fear of deportation. This does not even include the second generation of Mexican-Americans who are citizens but were brought up in a family that came over here from Mexico. So to blame the Arizona education system on lower graduation rates is very unfair.

My whole point in all of this is simply to state then when looking at ACT and SAT scores, there is no evidence to suggest that kids in Arizona are less prepared for college than their counterparts in other states. Unfortunately the data, due to percentages of kids in each state that take the test, also does not give solid evidence that Arizona preforms as well as the scores initially indicate.
But in the case of ACT/SAT testing you are comparing apples to apples--college bound kids to college bound kids. The elderly people in AZ have zero effect on these numbers and there are illegal immigrants/ESL families everywhere. The blame is appropriately placed. If the schools are not doing enough to prepare their college bounds students, they need to figure out why. Having a large number of ESL families is not an acceptable reason. They could track kids, offer more advanced classes, for those who qualify, etc. There are plenty of ways to get kids that want to go to college ready to go to college.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
But in the case of ACT/SAT testing you are comparing apples to apples--college bound kids to college bound kids. The elderly people in AZ have zero effect on these numbers and there are illegal immigrants/ESL families everywhere. The blame is appropriately placed. If the schools are not doing enough to prepare their college bounds students, they need to figure out why. Having a large number of ESL families is not an acceptable reason. They could track kids, offer more advanced classes, for those who qualify, etc. There are plenty of ways to get kids that want to go to college ready to go to college.
Not sure if you realize it but you are actually validating my initial point. Based on the scores Arizona is above the national average. Other posters are saying that is only because fewer students take the tests in AZ so their scores are less valid.

The reason I brought up elderly people is to exhibit that if 8% of the total population are illegal immigrants, then that number is even higher in the younger generation. So it is relevant.

And you are completely naive if you think over a decade a states school system can churn out college graduates from kids whose families don't even speak English at the same exact rate in areas where everyone speaks English. Remember that it as in the last 15-20 years that we saw such a huge amount of immigration from Latin American countries. It takes time for a school system to adapt to that type of influx. In addition most midwestern and northeastern states have no where near the amount of non English speakers as Arizona does.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:06 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 35,478,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Having a large number of ESL families is not an acceptable reason. They could track kids, offer more advanced classes, for those who qualify, etc. There are plenty of ways to get kids that want to go to college ready to go to college.
There's no money to do that. AZ is pretty much flat busted, money-wise. They actually sold the state capitol building a couple of years ago to raise cash.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
There's no money to do that. AZ is pretty much flat busted, money-wise. They actually sold the state capitol building a couple of years ago to raise cash.
Not to mention it takes time to adjust. And you can throw all the money you want at it and it will improve, but not be at the same level as states that do not have an abundance of ESL students. It's not an excuse for failing, but is an excuse for not being as good.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
But in the case of ACT/SAT testing you are comparing apples to apples--college bound kids to college bound kids. The elderly people in AZ have zero effect on these numbers and there are illegal immigrants/ESL families everywhere. The blame is appropriately placed. If the schools are not doing enough to prepare their college bounds students, they need to figure out why. Having a large number of ESL families is not an acceptable reason. They could track kids, offer more advanced classes, for those who qualify, etc. There are plenty of ways to get kids that want to go to college ready to go to college.
So are you saying that inner-city districts with parents in poverty and kids that get little to no academic support at home should perform at the same level as affluent districts? No excuses right?
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:27 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
41,584 posts, read 54,183,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
So are you saying that inner-city districts with parents in poverty and kids that get little to no academic support at home should perform at the same level as affluent districts? No excuses right?

That's the operating theory behind most if not all of the current "school reform" movements up to and including the money the Gates Foundation supplies and NCLB.
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