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Old 04-10-2012, 03:32 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 35,475,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Not to mention it takes time to adjust. And you can throw all the money you want at it and it will improve, but not be at the same level as states that do not have an abundance of ESL students. It's not an excuse for failing, but is an excuse for not being as good.
It's not an excuse. It's a REASON.

I've read the exchanges here with great interest. I don't think residents of states without great influxes of ESL students can grasp the enormity of the problem and the challenge states like AZ and CA face. (Not to mention how much money is diverted towards students who do not speak English when they walk in the school room door.)
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
That's the operatingtheory behind most if not all of the current "school reform" movements up to and including the money the Gates Foundation supplies and NCLB.
It's grossly uninformed. How can you acknowledge that parental involvement impacts student performance, and then at the same to not allow it to be used as a reason for lower test scores?
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
It's not an excuse. It's a REASON.

I've read the exchanges here with great interest. I don't think residents of states without great influxes of ESL students can grasp the enormity of the problem and the challenge states like AZ and CA face.
Not to get too political, but. . . or you can be George Bush and be Governor of a state with high numbers of ESL students and still push forward NCLB. Living in the state doesn't necessarily mean you will make any effort to "grasp the enormity" of the problem. He governed the state and clearly didn't grasp it. Or as I actually believe, just didn't care about it.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
41,582 posts, read 54,173,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
It's grossly uninformed. How can you acknowledge that parental involvement impacts student performance, and then at the same to not allow it to be used as a reason for lower test scores?
Ask the people in charge of the Gates and Broad Foundations, Michelle Rhee, William Hite, Arne Duncan, John Deasy and the heads of the various state level Boards of Education and Departments of Education. I don't have the answer.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:47 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 35,475,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Not to get too political, but. . . or you can be George Bush and be Governor of a state with high numbers of ESL students and still push forward NCLB. Living in the state doesn't necessarily mean you will make any effort to "grasp the enormity" of the problem. He governed the state and clearly didn't grasp it. Or as I actually believe, just didn't care about it.
That's a whole other discussion. **sigh**
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Ask the people in charge of the Gates and Broad Foundations, Michelle Rhee, William Hite, Arne Duncan, John Deasy and the heads of the various state level Boards of Education and Departments of Education. I don't have the answer.
I understand the prevailing thinking of not letting an excuse derail efforts to fix the problem. What I assume they are championing is not just throwing our hands up and saying "poor kids can't learn". I agree with that thought process. But as we make efforts to fix the problem we still need to realize that it's not a quick fix and improvement should be the measure of success, not reaching the same levels as kids from affluent families. It's simply not realistic that overall kids with fewer opportunities are going achieve at the exact same level as kids with vastly more opportunities.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
41,582 posts, read 54,173,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
I understand the prevailing thinking of not letting an excuse derail efforts to fix the problem. What I assume they are championing is not just throwing our hands up and saying "poor kids can't learn". I agree with that thought process. But as we make efforts to fix the problem we still need to realize that it's not a quick fix and improvement should be the measure of success, not reaching the same levels as kids from affluent families. It's simply not realistic that overall kids with fewer opportunities are going achieve at the exact same level as kids with vastly more opportunities.

Then you need to tell the people I mentioned earlier the above. They sure as **** don't listen to teachers. And while you're at it tell the teacher bashers on this forum, also. They won't listen either.

It's amazing that the bashing here, on this thread, has been personal and not aimed at teachers, at least so far.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:25 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,773,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Almost 8% of Arizona residents are illegal immigrants. When you consider that most elderly people are citizens, that number jumps even higher when you are talking about students. So in Arizona it's safe to say that over 10% of the students are products of a household where English is not spoken, and the parents are in fear of deportation. This does not even include the second generation of Mexican-Americans who are citizens but were brought up in a family that came over here from Mexico. So to blame the Arizona education system on lower graduation rates is very unfair.

My whole point in all of this is simply to state then when looking at ACT and SAT scores, there is no evidence to suggest that kids in Arizona are less prepared for college than their counterparts in other states. Unfortunately the data, due to percentages of kids in each state that take the test, also does not give solid evidence that Arizona preforms as well as the scores initially indicate.
The evidence that AZ students are not prepared for college is the fact that after 5 years in college less than 20% have a degree of ANY KIND (including associates).

Many Arizona high-school graduates lack degree, report shows

Arizona (http://www.statebrief.com/briefblog/2010/10/20/arizona%E2%80%99s-community-colleges-produce-dropouts-not-graduates/ - broken link)

Oh and the ELL kids in Arizona is only 5% higher than the national average.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...8_hUPg&cad=rja

Many states with higher percentage ELL students out rank Arizona by most measures, including SAT/ACT. New Mexico for one.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:29 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,773,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
It's not an excuse. It's a REASON.

I've read the exchanges here with great interest. I don't think residents of states without great influxes of ESL students can grasp the enormity of the problem and the challenge states like AZ and CA face. (Not to mention how much money is diverted towards students who do not speak English when they walk in the school room door.)
The national average of ELL students is 10.7% in AZ its 15%.

In my state its slightly above the national average for elementary schools and then below for high school. Because we have a huge push in this state to get kids out of ELL classes before high school.

Its also probably why we graduate more ELL students than most states as well. ELL should not be a label for more than a few years. If it is then there is a problem with the education of ELL students.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:47 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,099,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
It's grossly uninformed. How can you acknowledge that parental involvement impacts student performance, and then at the same to not allow it to be used as a reason for lower test scores?
Because it is easier to blame the teachers and the schools than it is to point fingers at the real problem. It isn't politically correct to say that poor people don't care about getting an education. It is politically correct to make excuses for why they don't care....
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