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Old 04-10-2012, 08:11 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 35,478,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
If it is then there is a problem with the education of ELL students.
I've thought THAT for a very long time.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:23 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Because it is easier to blame the teachers and the schools than it is to point fingers at the real problem. It isn't politically correct to say that poor people don't care about getting an education. It is politically correct to make excuses for why they don't care....
It also isn't true.

Lots of poor people care very much about education. First generation asian immigrants in lower SES spring to mind. And within other ethnic groups there are varying level of proscribing importance to "education".

It is just as easy to say that higher SES groups don't care about education but rather "grades" or even sports as has been the subject of many threads.

The reality is when a family is struggling to feed, cloth or otherwise meet its basic necessities education slides down the list in terms of importance. That is not an ELL issue it is a SES issue.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
42 posts, read 84,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
It's not an excuse. It's a REASON.

I've read the exchanges here with great interest. I don't think residents of states without great influxes of ESL students can grasp the enormity of the problem and the challenge states like AZ and CA face. (Not to mention how much money is diverted towards students who do not speak English when they walk in the school room door.)
The thing that I don't understand about the high stakes testing in border states like Arizona is this: if you want to know what the kids really know, why aren't they taking the test in Language 1? If a kid in South Tucson lives and breathes Spanish everywhere but the classroom, and the state or federal goverment truly wants to test him why is he penalized for picking up English second?

I'd like to see what our test numbers in AZ looked like if our Spanish speakers were tested in Spanish- it's never going to happen, but I'd love to see our kids flip the script on everyone who says that they are uneducated just because they aren't academically fluent in a second language. Oh well- I guess the experts can just keep bagging on our teachers out here; that'll solve the problem for sure.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:23 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,102,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
It also isn't true.

Lots of poor people care very much about education. First generation asian immigrants in lower SES spring to mind. And within other ethnic groups there are varying level of proscribing importance to "education".

It is just as easy to say that higher SES groups don't care about education but rather "grades" or even sports as has been the subject of many threads.

The reality is when a family is struggling to feed, cloth or otherwise meet its basic necessities education slides down the list in terms of importance. That is not an ELL issue it is a SES issue.
Again, excuses. Doesn't mean that they aren't valid but they are still excuses. It also comes down to choices. There are 1000's of programs out there to help poor families but they can't help if the families don't show up.

One example, in our state any student can attend any school they want, for free. So, kids that live in improvished areas with substandard schools could attend the top schools in the state. In the poor communities, they even provide free busing for students to take advantage of this program (people in other areas have to provide their own transportation).

People STILL don't take advantage of this. The bus would pick the student up at their front door and deposit them at their front door at the end of the day. The only "extra" work would be filling out the necessary paperwork. In a recent article about this program in the inner city schools, 40 kids were taking advantage of this program, 40 out of over 25,000 students. Of those 40 kids, NONE of them showed any improvement academically attending the top school. They still were not turning in homework, studying for tests, etc.

So, how do you excuse that? You can only do so much to help people, they have to put forth some effort too...
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:11 AM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Again, excuses. Doesn't mean that they aren't valid but they are still excuses. It also comes down to choices. There are 1000's of programs out there to help poor families but they can't help if the families don't show up.

One example, in our state any student can attend any school they want, for free. So, kids that live in improvished areas with substandard schools could attend the top schools in the state. In the poor communities, they even provide free busing for students to take advantage of this program (people in other areas have to provide their own transportation).

People STILL don't take advantage of this. The bus would pick the student up at their front door and deposit them at their front door at the end of the day. The only "extra" work would be filling out the necessary paperwork. In a recent article about this program in the inner city schools, 40 kids were taking advantage of this program, 40 out of over 25,000 students. Of those 40 kids, NONE of them showed any improvement academically attending the top school. They still were not turning in homework, studying for tests, etc.

So, how do you excuse that? You can only do so much to help people, they have to put forth some effort too...
Ya, I am not sure what you are talking about. What excuses?

I have had multiple low SES, formerly ELL, students. Two from last year spring to mind. Diego came here by lottery from Peru when he was 10 didn't speak a work of English. Busted his butt and got a 2350 on the SATs (not even in his native language) and got into Princeton but decided to go to MIT. Bertha similar situation, but came from Mexico a bit earlier. Despite being required to care for her younger sibs (a common cultural expectation) she still did well in school and now goes to Cornell.

Some kids and families choose to do well despite their issues. This can be said for any group. Not just ELL or low SES but also kids with LDs.
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Old 04-11-2012, 10:39 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,102,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Ya, I am not sure what you are talking about. What excuses?

I have had multiple low SES, formerly ELL, students. Two from last year spring to mind. Diego came here by lottery from Peru when he was 10 didn't speak a work of English. Busted his butt and got a 2350 on the SATs (not even in his native language) and got into Princeton but decided to go to MIT. Bertha similar situation, but came from Mexico a bit earlier. Despite being required to care for her younger sibs (a common cultural expectation) she still did well in school and now goes to Cornell.

Some kids and families choose to do well despite their issues. This can be said for any group. Not just ELL or low SES but also kids with LDs.
Exactly--the excuse you gave was that they were poor and had other worries and that is why they couldn't do well in school. The example you gave shows otherwise. Again, it comes down to choices. One can sit back and complain about their lot in life or one can make a choice to change their situation.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:24 AM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Exactly--the excuse you gave was that they were poor and had other worries and that is why they couldn't do well in school. The example you gave shows otherwise. Again, it comes down to choices. One can sit back and complain about their lot in life or one can make a choice to change their situation.
Excuse? Who made an excuse?

Acknowledging what students have to overcome isn't an excuse its an acknowledgment. Calling an acknowledgment an "excuse" belittles peoples reality.

If someone is climbing Mt. Everest saying it is difficult isn't an "excuse" for failing to climb it, it is the reason. Just because some people did climb it doesn't make the climb any easier. Its hard. Acknowledging that it is makes it easier to prepare for the climb.

Same with acknowledging cultural differences. Acknowledging the hard things they need to overcome can help them develop strategies to do it. But saying that acknowledging their difficulties is an "excuse" just belittles the effort itself.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Ya, I am not sure what you are talking about. What excuses?

I have had multiple low SES, formerly ELL, students. Two from last year spring to mind. Diego came here by lottery from Peru when he was 10 didn't speak a work of English. Busted his butt and got a 2350 on the SATs (not even in his native language) and got into Princeton but decided to go to MIT. Bertha similar situation, but came from Mexico a bit earlier. Despite being required to care for her younger sibs (a common cultural expectation) she still did well in school and now goes to Cornell.

Some kids and families choose to do well despite their issues. This can be said for any group. Not just ELL or low SES but also kids with LDs.
Didn't read this prior to my other reply. I'm telling you that Diego and Bertha are NOTHING like the ESL kids I had to teach. Your kids come over by lottery. My kids come over in the back of a van with 20 other people, running from the border patrol.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:10 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 35,478,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Didn't read this prior to my other reply. I'm telling you that Diego and Bertha are NOTHING like the ESL kids I had to teach. Your kids come over by lottery. My kids come over in the back of a van with 20 other people, running from the border patrol.
Sorry, but just because their parents came into this country in the back of a van does not mean they don't value education.

Anecdotal evidence but I've known the children of "illegals" (Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala) who got held by the hand and walked to school every morning by their mothers or grandmothers. And I've had these women tell me with great pride how well their children are doing in school.

If you're claiming "biology" is predetermining these children to be lousy students I couldn't disagree with you more. The students Jamie Escalante taught in East L.A. probably had parents or grandparents who were farm workers in the Central Valley.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,281 posts, read 5,827,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Exactly--the excuse you gave was that they were poor and had other worries and that is why they couldn't do well in school. The example you gave shows otherwise. Again, it comes down to choices. One can sit back and complain about their lot in life or one can make a choice to change their situation.
When Mom and Dad are each working three jobs just to put food on the table, many things fall to the wayside. In your state does that form have to be filled out in person during business hours? A whole lot of poor people cannot do that. They you know work and may not have any available time off.

Also, not all states have the option that your state has. In most places, you go to the school which boundary you live in. You have no option, and that school often is horrible. I went to low income schools as a child and know what they can be like. Yes, sometimes someone in high school is having to work, help take care of siblings, and also do school on top of that.

Another question is does every parent know about the open enrollment? Is it well publicized? Maybe they just don't know it exists. Maybe there are other reasons they aren't utilizing the program. Just because they aren't using it does not mean they don't care about the education of their children. Almost every single low income parent I have ever known has cared deeply about his child's education. However, yes, sometimes there are other things for parents to worry about such as shelter, food, electricity, clothes, and safety of everyone.
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