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Old 04-12-2012, 06:02 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,102,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Excuse? Who made an excuse?

Acknowledging what students have to overcome isn't an excuse its an acknowledgment. Calling an acknowledgment an "excuse" belittles peoples reality.

If someone is climbing Mt. Everest saying it is difficult isn't an "excuse" for failing to climb it, it is the reason. Just because some people did climb it doesn't make the climb any easier. Its hard. Acknowledging that it is makes it easier to prepare for the climb.

Same with acknowledging cultural differences. Acknowledging the hard things they need to overcome can help them develop strategies to do it. But saying that acknowledging their difficulties is an "excuse" just belittles the effort itself.
You made the excuses about working hours, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
When Mom and Dad are each working three jobs just to put food on the table, many things fall to the wayside. In your state does that form have to be filled out in person during business hours? A whole lot of poor people cannot do that. They you know work and may not have any available time off.

Also, not all states have the option that your state has. In most places, you go to the school which boundary you live in. You have no option, and that school often is horrible. I went to low income schools as a child and know what they can be like. Yes, sometimes someone in high school is having to work, help take care of siblings, and also do school on top of that.

Another question is does every parent know about the open enrollment? Is it well publicized? Maybe they just don't know it exists. Maybe there are other reasons they aren't utilizing the program. Just because they aren't using it does not mean they don't care about the education of their children. Almost every single low income parent I have ever known has cared deeply about his child's education. However, yes, sometimes there are other things for parents to worry about such as shelter, food, electricity, clothes, and safety of everyone.
No, the form can be filled out at home, brought to and from school by their child. It isn't a hard process. The open enrollment has been offered for 20 years. It is very well publicized. You would have to choose not to know about the program or never read a newspaper article or anything sent home from the schools not to know about the program.

Again, you are making excuses rather than addressing the issues. Every low income school around here has homework help after school, free or very low cost (sliding scale) after school care for kids, programs for after school activities for older kids, free breakfast and lunch for those that qualify, numerous clothing drives, etc. Low or no cost rent programs, utility programs, free medical care, etc., etc, etc. There are PLENTY of people that work long, long hours and still manage to make sure their kids do their homework. Again, it comes down to choices. No one said it was easy, but you do have to make it a priority.

As for all of these low income families you know that "care deeply" about their child's education, how do they demonstrate that they care so much? I've had family teaching in inner city schools for decades and your experience is NOT what they have found.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,351 posts, read 115,686,197 times
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^^It tends to be easy from the perspective of a SAHM or someone with very flexible job hours to talk about "making excuses".

It's hard enough for me to come in late, leave early, take a long lunch, etc to take care of personal business. It was far worse when I worked as a hospital floor nurse. You claim to have relatives who are nurses, ask them.

The other thing is that open-enrollment does not solve all problems. It is fortunate for the kids in your state that transportation is provided for open enrollees. Transportation for OE is not required in Colorado, though I've heard, anecdotally, that some limited transportation is offered in some districts. And who wants their kids crossing the entire city to go to school? I think school districts should work to improve the neighborhood schools for everyone.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
You made the excuses about working hours, etc...



No, the form can be filled out at home, brought to and from school by their child. It isn't a hard process. The open enrollment has been offered for 20 years. It is very well publicized. You would have to choose not to know about the program or never read a newspaper article or anything sent home from the schools not to know about the program.

Again, you are making excuses rather than addressing the issues. Every low income school around here has homework help after school, free or very low cost (sliding scale) after school care for kids, programs for after school activities for older kids, free breakfast and lunch for those that qualify, numerous clothing drives, etc. Low or no cost rent programs, utility programs, free medical care, etc., etc, etc. There are PLENTY of people that work long, long hours and still manage to make sure their kids do their homework. Again, it comes down to choices. No one said it was easy, but you do have to make it a priority.

As for all of these low income families you know that "care deeply" about their child's education, how do they demonstrate that they care so much? I've had family teaching in inner city schools for decades and your experience is NOT what they have found.
Just so you are aware, in most states illegal immigrants are not eligible for any of those programs, even if their children were born in this country.

Additionally, it is very, very hard to qualify for many of those programs as well. For example, rent assistance is a lottery based system in my state as are some of the other programs you mentioned.
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Sorry, but just because their parents came into this country in the back of a van does not mean they don't value education.

Anecdotal evidence but I've known the children of "illegals" (Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala) who got held by the hand and walked to school every morning by their mothers or grandmothers. And I've had these women tell me with great pride how well their children are doing in school.

If you're claiming "biology" is predetermining these children to be lousy students I couldn't disagree with you more. The students Jamie Escalante taught in East L.A. probably had parents or grandparents who were farm workers in the Central Valley.
I'm not saying that EVERY parent in this situation doesn't value education. But schools don't have one student, they have hundreds. If you take hundreds that came the described environment and compare that to hundreds that came from a middle-class American family the value on education as a group is vastly different. A schools test scores and a states test scores are an aggregate of the entire population. So if a states or schools population has many more "at-risk" students then they are going to have lower scores.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,647 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Sorry, but just because their parents came into this country in the back of a van does not mean they don't value education.

Anecdotal evidence but I've known the children of "illegals" (Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala) who got held by the hand and walked to school every morning by their mothers or grandmothers. And I've had these women tell me with great pride how well their children are doing in school.

If you're claiming "biology" is predetermining these children to be lousy students I couldn't disagree with you more. The students Jamie Escalante taught in East L.A. probably had parents or grandparents who were farm workers in the Central Valley.
I'm not claiming biology is predetermining individual kids to be lousy students. I'm saying as a group you will have more. For instance if you have 50 sets of parents take part in a study where they all had kids; in 25 of the couples the two parents were both 3 inches taller than the average height for their gender and the other group of 25 they were 2-3 inches shorter. The group that was taller would have taller kids as a whole. Now would some of the shorter parents produce a kid taller than a kid from taller parents? Yes. So it's not predetermined, but it's a huge factor. So in that same vain, when your parents are not intelligent, and they don't value education, you are much more at risk to be less intelligent and not value education.


I've met awesome parents that were illegal immigrants. I've met extremely bright kids that were products of illegal immigrants. I'm not saying that it's predetermined on an individual basis. I'm saying basic biology teaches that intelligence is to some degree hereditary. So as a group, children of illegal immigrants tend to have less emphasis on education, and are probably less intelligent.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:34 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 59,102,252 times
Reputation: 10679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^It tends to be easy from the perspective of a SAHM or someone with very flexible job hours to talk about "making excuses".

It's hard enough for me to come in late, leave early, take a long lunch, etc to take care of personal business. It was far worse when I worked as a hospital floor nurse. You claim to have relatives who are nurses, ask them.

The other thing is that open-enrollment does not solve all problems. It is fortunate for the kids in your state that transportation is provided for open enrollees. Transportation for OE is not required in Colorado, though I've heard, anecdotally, that some limited transportation is offered in some districts. And who wants their kids crossing the entire city to go to school? I think school districts should work to improve the neighborhood schools for everyone.
No, our state doesn't provide transportation, some areas of the inner city has transportation to other schools outside of the city. That is only available for low income students, everyone else has to drive themselves.

School districts ARE working to improve things, but they can only do so much. When a child doesn't come prepared for school, what else can the schools do short of setting up boarding schools for these kids so they get what they need (food, clothing, etc.). Is that really what you want your schools to provide? Again, it's easy to blame the schools for the failing kids, just like you did above, what about the parents??
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,351 posts, read 115,686,197 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
No, our state doesn't provide transportation, some areas of the inner city has transportation to other schools outside of the city. That is only available for low income students, everyone else has to drive themselves.

School districts ARE working to improve things, but they can only do so much. When a child doesn't come prepared for school, what else can the schools do short of setting up boarding schools for these kids so they get what they need (food, clothing, etc.). Is that really what you want your schools to provide? Again, it's easy to blame the schools for the failing kids, just like you did above, what about the parents??
What did I blame the schools for? Please elaborate.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
42 posts, read 84,454 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Just so you are aware, in most states illegal immigrants are not eligible for any of those programs, even if their children were born in this country.

Additionally, it is very, very hard to qualify for many of those programs as well. For example, rent assistance is a lottery based system in my state as are some of the other programs you mentioned.
Where education is concerned it is illegal to even ask about immigration status as Texas found out the hard way; that is a Supreme Court decision.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:05 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3days View Post
Where education is concerned it is illegal to even ask about immigration status as Texas found out the hard way; that is a Supreme Court decision.
Right but is rent assistance, utility assistance, food stamps, etc education programs?
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:11 PM
 
16,833 posts, read 16,775,034 times
Reputation: 20833
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
I'm not claiming biology is predetermining individual kids to be lousy students. I'm saying as a group you will have more. For instance if you have 50 sets of parents take part in a study where they all had kids; in 25 of the couples the two parents were both 3 inches taller than the average height for their gender and the other group of 25 they were 2-3 inches shorter. The group that was taller would have taller kids as a whole. Now would some of the shorter parents produce a kid taller than a kid from taller parents? Yes. So it's not predetermined, but it's a huge factor. So in that same vain, when your parents are not intelligent, and they don't value education, you are much more at risk to be less intelligent and not value education.
OMG. Illegal immigrants and their children as a "group" are less intelligent than white americans as a "group"??

Oh and fyi, genius, height is controlled MORE by environment than genetics. Meaning the length of bone in people with out growth disorders is controlled by NUTRITION more than the height of parents. I like this analogy even better now. Put a group of children in a classroom with a "teacher" (gag) who assumes that they are stupid based on their race, and they will not perform well.


Quote:
I've met awesome parents that were illegal immigrants. I've met extremely bright kids that were products of illegal immigrants. I'm not saying that it's predetermined on an individual basis. I'm saying basic biology teaches that intelligence is to some degree hereditary. So as a group, children of illegal immigrants tend to have less emphasis on education, and are probably less intelligent.
You make me ashamed to be a teacher. Racists should teach.
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