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Old 04-13-2012, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
35,635 posts, read 38,123,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Oh and fyi, genius, height is controlled MORE by environment than genetics. Meaning the length of bone in people with out growth disorders is controlled by NUTRITION more than the height of parents.
Actually, no, height is mostly genetic, and parental height can be used to predict the height of a child.

How To Predict Height Growth | LIVESTRONG.COM

Genetics determines potential height; illness may modify it.

"Endocrinologists and other doctors calculate the genetic growth potential of children using mid-parental height. The adult heights of 95 percent of children will fall into the range predicted by mid-parental height calculation, according to the "Manual of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Fourth Edition," edited by Dr. Norman Lavin. Adult height is usually the product of genetics, but underlying medical conditions, as well as general health and nutrition, can affect final attained height."

The finest nutrition in the world will not make someone who is genetically destined to be at most 5 ft 10 in be 6 ft 4 in.

Off topic. Carry on.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Actually, no, height is mostly genetic, and parental height can be used to predict the height of a child.

How To Predict Height Growth | LIVESTRONG.COM

Genetics determines potential height; illness may modify it.

"Endocrinologists and other doctors calculate the genetic growth potential of children using mid-parental height. The adult heights of 95 percent of children will fall into the range predicted by mid-parental height calculation, according to the "Manual of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Fourth Edition," edited by Dr. Norman Lavin. Adult height is usually the product of genetics, but underlying medical conditions, as well as general health and nutrition, can affect final attained height."

The finest nutrition in the world will not make someone who is genetically destined to be at most 5 ft 10 in be 6 ft 4 in.

Off topic. Carry on.
Not off topic at all. But since lbk didn't say it it must not be so.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
OMG. Illegal immigrants and their children as a "group" are less intelligent than white americans as a "group"??

Oh and fyi, genius, height is controlled MORE by environment than genetics. Meaning the length of bone in people with out growth disorders is controlled by NUTRITION more than the height of parents. I like this analogy even better now. Put a group of children in a classroom with a "teacher" (gag) who assumes that they are stupid based on their race, and they will not perform well.




You make me ashamed to be a teacher. Racists should teach.
If you teach science (which I think you stated you do) and you think genetics has very little to do with height, you don't need me to make you feel ashamed to be a teacher.

Let me spell this out for you, Einstein. I teach kids as individuals, not as a group. Knowing their "risks", given the group that they belong too, makes me a better teacher, not a racist. I never assume an individual is less intelligent. But my statements about groups are accurate. They are not racist. If I were racist I would think that ALL illegal immigrants are less intelligent and would not accept when one obviously was intelligent. I would also treat them differently. I do neither.

If my statements are so off base then why do white americans score higher on pretty much every assessment given when compared to minorities? Do the minorities have the amazing bad luck of always getting crappy teachers? Why is there an achievement gap? Is that a myth?
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,129,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
I'm not claiming biology is predetermining individual kids to be lousy students. I'm saying as a group you will have more. For instance if you have 50 sets of parents take part in a study where they all had kids; in 25 of the couples the two parents were both 3 inches taller than the average height for their gender and the other group of 25 they were 2-3 inches shorter. The group that was taller would have taller kids as a whole. Now would some of the shorter parents produce a kid taller than a kid from taller parents? Yes. So it's not predetermined, but it's a huge factor. So in that same vain, when your parents are not intelligent, and they don't value education, you are much more at risk to be less intelligent and not value education.


I've met awesome parents that were illegal immigrants. I've met extremely bright kids that were products of illegal immigrants. I'm not saying that it's predetermined on an individual basis. I'm saying basic biology teaches that intelligence is to some degree hereditary. So as a group, children of illegal immigrants tend to have less emphasis on education, and are probably less intelligent.
I challenge you to prove that the children of illegal immigrants are, less intelligent than other populations.

This is racist garbage. Intelligence has little to do with emphasis on education at home. Given my parents thought a college education was wasted on a daughter, I'm quite glad for that. Believe it or not, two of my siblings score in the genius range on IQ tests, two of us well above average and, alas, two close to average IN SPITE OF coming from a family that does not place an emphasis on education. As a matter of fact, my family thought that you don't need an education. My step father had a 6th grade education and thought that was all anyone needed. You may find this hard to believe but he was quite intelligent. I think my father might have had a high school diploma. He also had a genius IQ. My mother was no slouch in spite of only having a high school diploma.

Seriously??? You're a teacher and you believe this crap?

I have no reason to believe that the children of illegal immagrants are any less intelligent than other children. They may be less educated because of lack of opportunity but that does not make them less intelligent.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,129,429 times
Reputation: 14682
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
If you teach science (which I think you stated you do) and you think genetics has very little to do with height, you don't need me to make you feel ashamed to be a teacher.

Let me spell this out for you, Einstein. I teach kids as individuals, not as a group. Knowing their "risks", given the group that they belong too, makes me a better teacher, not a racist. I never assume an individual is less intelligent. But my statements about groups are accurate. They are not racist. If I were racist I would think that ALL illegal immigrants are less intelligent and would not accept when one obviously was intelligent. I would also treat them differently. I do neither.

If my statements are so off base then why do white americans score higher on pretty much every assessment given when compared to minorities? Do the minorities have the amazing bad luck of always getting crappy teachers? Why is there an achievement gap? Is that a myth?
UGH. The achievement gap has NOTHING to do with intelligence. Race has nothing to do with intelligence (I'm half polish and have an IQ of something around 130...go figure... (for the inquiring minds that want to know, the other half is Slovak. My dad said that made me a slow-polock, lol). You are mistaking the influence of environment on actions and the impact of SES on achievement for lack of intelligence. Black and immigrant children are more likely to come from poor families where they might not even get breakfast before school (shown to help achievement). They may experience more stress in the home and be less likely to have the tools they need to study at home available to them. Perhaps their parents are not educated and can't help them with their homework. Perhaps they have to work to help the family pay the bills. I've seen lots of reasons for the achievement gap that have nothing to do with intelligence.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I challenge you to prove that the children of illegal immigrants are, less intelligent than other populations.

This is racist garbage. Intelligence has little to do with emphasis on education at home. Given my parents thought a college education was wasted on a daughter, I'm quite glad for that. Believe it or not, two of my siblings score in the genius range on IQ tests, two of us well above average and, alas, two close to average IN SPITE OF coming from a family that does not place an emphasis on education. As a matter of fact, my family thought that you don't need an education. My step father had a 6th grade education and thought that was all anyone needed. You may find this hard to believe but he was quite intelligent. I think my father might have had a high school diploma. He also had a genius IQ. My mother was no slouch in spite of only having a high school diploma.

Seriously??? You're a teacher and you believe this crap?

I have no reason to believe that the children of illegal immagrants are any less intelligent than other children. They may be less educated because of lack of opportunity but that does not make them less intelligent.
Stop for a moment and read what I write. Try and not allow your contempt for me based on my previous critiques of you to influence your ability to intelligently consider what I write.

I'm not saying that race determines intelligence. I'm saying that having intelligent parents can determine intelligence. That is a big difference. I'm going to say it again since you never seem to get things the first time I say them. I'll put it in all caps for you as well. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INTELLIGENCE. Hopefully now you will stop calling me a racist.

If you did IQ tests on doctors, lawyers, and other college educated people in any country, they would probably have higher overall IQ's then laborers that never went to college. People with high IQ's are usually smart enough to make it through the risks and get that good education (not all but many). And many of them never were at risk because they came from a good family background because intelligence is at least partially hereditary.

The immigrants that come to this country from Mexico are the laborers. The educated people of Mexico do not emigrate here en masse like the laborers do. So it stands to reason that in addition to English not being their first language, they have the added risk of not having the best family stock so to speak. If I was racist I would claim that Mexicans or Latinos (and this would more accurately be called being prejudiced as Mexican and Latino is an ethnic group not a race) were all less intelligent than Americans. I never said that and I don't believe it to be true. I just think it's a fair statement to make that the ones that emigrate here are generally not at the high end of the intelligence spectrum as a whole.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
UGH. The achievement gap has NOTHING to do with intelligence. Race has nothing to do with intelligence (I'm half polish and have an IQ of something around 130...go figure... (for the inquiring minds that want to know, the other half is Slovak. My dad said that made me a slow-polock, lol). You are mistaking the influence of environment on actions and the impact of SES on achievement for lack of intelligence. Black and immigrant children are more likely to come from poor families where they might not even get breakfast before school (shown to help achievement). They may experience more stress in the home and be less likely to have the tools they need to study at home available to them. Perhaps their parents are not educated and can't help them with their homework. Perhaps they have to work to help the family pay the bills. I've seen lots of reasons for the achievement gap that have nothing to do with intelligence.
I know that environment has a lot to do with it. But so does intelligence. Interestingly I'm half Polish as well. And I have an IQ of 141. But the fallacy of "pollacks" is only based on the word sounding funny. There is zero evidence that Polish people lack intelligence.
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,129,429 times
Reputation: 14682
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
Stop for a moment and read what I write. Try and not allow your contempt for me based on my previous critiques of you to influence your ability to intelligently consider what I write.

I'm not saying that race determines intelligence. I'm saying that having intelligent parents can determine intelligence. That is a big difference. I'm going to say it again since you never seem to get things the first time I say them. I'll put it in all caps for you as well. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INTELLIGENCE. Hopefully now you will stop calling me a racist.

If you did IQ tests on doctors, lawyers, and other college educated people in any country, they would probably have higher overall IQ's then laborers that never went to college. People with high IQ's are usually smart enough to make it through the risks and get that good education (not all but many). And many of them never were at risk because they came from a good family background because intelligence is at least partially hereditary.

The immigrants that come to this country from Mexico are the laborers. The educated people of Mexico do not emigrate here en masse like the laborers do. So it stands to reason that in addition to English not being their first language, they have the added risk of not having the best family stock so to speak. If I was racist I would claim that Mexicans or Latinos (and this would more accurately be called being prejudiced as Mexican and Latino is an ethnic group not a race) were all less intelligent than Americans. I never said that and I don't believe it to be true. I just think it's a fair statement to make that the ones that emigrate here are generally not at the high end of the intelligence spectrum as a whole.
I read what you wrote. I even highlighed the offensive part. I challenge you to prove that illegal immigrants are less intelligent (your words not mine) when compared to the general population. I don't believe they are. I don't care if they're laborers. There are lots of reasons why someone might be a laboror besides lack of intelligence. How about lack of opportunties? I would think a teacher would know this.

Please prove your point with data.
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,129,429 times
Reputation: 14682
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
I know that environment has a lot to do with it. But so does intelligence. Interestingly I'm half Polish as well. And I have an IQ of 141. But the fallacy of "pollacks" is only based on the word sounding funny. There is zero evidence that Polish people lack intelligence.
The point is, this was once believed by ignorant people.... IMO only someone who is ignorant would claim that illegal immigrants are less intelligent without supporting data (which I doubt you'll find). Less learned, yes. Less intelligent, we have no reason to think they are. My grandfather came here to work in the factories. He was quite intelligent. He simply didn't have an education. There is a difference between being educated and being intelligent. I'd think you'd know that.

Now go back and read your post..

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-13-2012 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,175 posts, read 2,177,533 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I read what you wrote. I even highlighed the offensive part. I challenge you to prove that illegal immigrants are less intelligent (your words not mine) when compared to the general population. I don't believe they are. I don't care if they're laborers. There are lots of reasons why someone might be a laboror besides lack of intelligence. How about lack of opportunties? I would think a teacher would know this.

Please prove your point with data.
Once again you keep implying that I'm saying ALL laborers are less intelligent than ALL lawyers. I do not believe that nor have I said that. This thread is about STATE test scores not INDIVIDUAL test scores. So all your INDIVIDUAL examples are meaningless. My point, is that as a group, laborers in any country are going to have lower IQ's, as a group, than professionals such as lawyers, doctor's etc. Below is a list taken from an average of numerous western studies:

Mean IQ score of persons in various occupations, taken from a variety of Western studies

Professors and researchers.......131, 134
Physicians and surgeons............128
Lawyers........................................128
Accountants..................................119, 128
Engineers (civil and mechanical)125
School teachers............................121, 123
General managers in business...122
Education administrators............122
Stenographers..............................119, 121
Pharmacists..................................120
Nurses...........................................1 19
Senior clerks................................118
Managers, production.................118
Clerks (general)...........................118
Managers, miscellaneous...........116
Cashiers.......................................116
Foremen, industrial......................114
Salesmen.....................................114
Clerks...........................................1 12
Electricians..................................109
Policemen....................................108
Mechanics....................................106
Machine operator........................105
Store managers..........................103
Shopkeepers...............................103
Butchers.......................................103
Carpenters, construction............102
Warehouse men...........................98
Carpenters and cabinet makers.97
Machine operator.........................97
Cooks and bakers........................97
Drivers, truck and van...................97
Laborers........................................96
Small farmers................................96
Gardeners.....................................95
Unskilled laborer...........................90
Factory packers and sorters........85
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