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Old 06-05-2012, 11:47 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 7,909,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
Which can be easily achieved by open enrollment instead of voucher programs and private school tax breaks like these.

Do you really think that giving a tax break for private school tuition is going to help people get out of high poverty areas?

The program that the OP started talking about is not a tax break. It is a tax redirection where the taxpayer can direct a portion of their state tax to a specific private school. The private school is then supposed to use that money for scholarships for students who transition to private school from public school. The concerns as stated in the NY Times article are that some (not all) private schools are not using the money as intended.

Either way - tax break or tax redirection - I don't think this program is going to help many students. It certainly is going to do nothing at all to improve public schools and will most likely have a deleterious effect on private school scholarship programs over time.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:58 AM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,521,015 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
That is exactly happened to my wife's district.

At the elementary level, the schools are 60% white and majority middle class.
At the high school level her school was 98% black and over 85% living in poverty. When you add in the population of the two local private high schools, the population goes back to 60% white and majority middle class.
So do you attribute this to racism, fear, or a flight to quality?

Quote:

Ironically, the three separate schools perform worse than the high school did 15 years ago when nearly all kids attended the public high school; though the high school has the worst performance of the three now.
Well, no, it is NOT ironic. It is typical and shows it has little to nothing to do with split this that one way or another.

The overall quality is going down. Did you miss your own point about 15 years? You are not even comparing Apples and Oranges at this point. Same most everywhere in the US. Do you really NOT understand that? But in General, the further South, or Big Cities, the dumber.

Has nothing to do with folks wishing to re-shuffle, split the deck or deal the cards. It is a sinking ship. Deck-by-deck, layer-by-layer, the boat is sinking.

All I am saying is -- rescue as many kids that will be rescued from sinking with it.

Quote:
So, not only has splitting the students up along socio-economic lines significantly hurt the students left behind at the lowest SES school, but it has also actually hurt the students who left for the higher SES school.
No, sorry, Crooked Administrators and Incompetent, Dumb Teachers (which messes attract and tolerate) are what hurt kids.

While Crooked Administrators and Incompetent, Dumb Teachers flock towards low SES -- anywhere that does allow tolerance for them will also be afflicted with them.


Quote:
Ironically, the poor performance at the high school has resulted in money being shuttled to other schools in the district. Instead of donors rushing to support a hurting school, they have rushed away to schools with less complex problems.
Donors? What do we now need "donors" for?

There was and is always enough money to do the job -- show me different anywhere?

What there is . . . is not enough money to BOTH Steal AND Do the Job. So priorities must be set. When there are crooked administrators about, Stealing First is the First priority.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:09 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,521,015 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Read the other thread I started about Louisiana and vouchers and the schools that are taking the most vouchers.

//www.city-data.com/forum/educa...-you-want.html

If this is the kind of education you want for kids, then I guess it works for you.
No, and hardly a comparison to anything.

Louisiana is a whole other world.

Are you familiar?
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
1,197 posts, read 2,274,193 times
Reputation: 1017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
True. At least in our Social Values system at present.

For my part I sort of view things as -- Terminate the Parents when the Kids are in Danger. But Mrs. Philip is a Social Worker who explains current operating theory is that may do more harm.



The wise ones will take it . . .

Remember we are dealing in Triage and Rescue operations.

Save those we can.

Greatest Good, and all.



HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THAT MATH WORK????

How can rescuing one, a few, or even most harm the ones that may get missed?

How is that?

Project Schools -- once they reach that standard -- get extra funding and Rescue Ranger wantabes involved. Like the Emergency Room at the hospital.

Presently you would have to fire the crooked administrators and slacker teachers that low performing schools attract to create that.




Better everyone drowns?

Suppose that could be "fair" in some twisted value system?
The reason that it works that was is the within a school unit if you have low achievers everywhere then expectations get lower and thus curriculum goes down. So by taking away the few high achievers from an already low school it is going to create even lower expectations and the low achievers will achieve even lower. As stated in Brown v. the Board of Education: "segregated public schools are inherently unequal". All black schools could never achieve at the level as their all white counterparts because of lower expectations. Being mixed in with higher achievers helps to pull the lower achievers up. This is also why special ed has been refined over the years to put give students with learning disabilities as much time in regular classroom environments as possible.
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:20 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,836,530 times
Reputation: 17473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
No, and hardly a comparison to anything.

Louisiana is a whole other world.

Are you familiar?
I lived there for about 4 years before Katrina.

I subbed in the Jefferson Parish schools which were NOT bad. Jindal is a creep.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:01 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,752,166 times
Reputation: 2981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
So do you attribute this to racism, fear, or a flight to quality?
If you talk to the parents, they will say it is a flight to quality. But ask them the specific reason and almost every time they will say that they believe their children will be in physical danger at the high school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Well, no, it is NOT ironic. It is typical and shows it has little to nothing to do with split this that one way or another.

The overall quality is going down. Did you miss your own point about 15 years? You are not even comparing Apples and Oranges at this point. Same most everywhere in the US. Do you really NOT understand that? But in General, the further South, or Big Cities, the dumber.
The other two schools in my example are private high schools. My point was that the private schools that parents moving their children too provide a worse education than the public high school did when it had the resources of all three populations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Donors? What do we now need "donors" for?

There was and is always enough money to do the job -- show me different anywhere?

What there is . . . is not enough money to BOTH Steal AND Do the Job. So priorities must be set. When there are crooked administrators about, Stealing First is the First priority.
Take a look around you. The best performing public schools and private schools have enormous donor foundations supporting them. They have large networks of volunteers. The monetary value of donated time in those districts is enormous.
But I was specifically responding to the assertion that low SES low performing district will have an enormous flood of donated support to lift them up. My personal experience was that the opposite happened. As a district's SES and performance dropped, donors went elsewhere.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:30 AM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,521,015 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by scocar View Post
The reason that it works that was is the within a school unit if you have low achievers everywhere then expectations get lower and thus curriculum goes down. So by taking away the few high achievers from an already low school it is going to create even lower expectations and the low achievers will achieve even lower.
Let me get this straight . . . The Students?

Again, The Students -- set the curriculum and standards?

Interesting.

Really, this gets sillier by the post.

Quote:

As stated in Brown v. the Board of Education: "segregated public schools are inherently unequal". All black schools could never achieve at the level as their all white counterparts because of lower expectations.

No one is talking about race based issues on allowing kids out of crappy schools. What is going on now -- where things are based on money -- comes FAR closer to (and is much more successful) to keeping the bottom down than segregation.

I have seen your mixed up metaphor mis-applied in the other direction, as well. Folks that advocate Jim Crow type separation claim that keeping Black doctors and other professionals only working in the Black community is better for Blacks, over all.

Most of US seem to not agree with the race stuff. Most of US do not agree with what is going in the Very Low Standards of the US Education Industry, as well -- and that is why the flight out.

The problem here is Very Low Standards from the US Very Low Standard Education Industry. Why try to wrap that crap in other folks' skin?


Quote:
Being mixed in with higher achievers helps to pull the lower achievers up.

This is also why special ed has been refined over the years to put give students with learning disabilities as much time in regular classroom environments as possible.
Not being taught to a decent level pulls all the kids down. That is all I see going on everywhere. Set the lowest possible standards, and everyone gets a medal -- and we are raising a generation of morons.

Brought upon US by moron teachers and administrators.

Do you really think that making a forced mix of levels where the fantasy seems to be a track meet/race ranging Olympic level sprinters to Special Olympics runners -- all in one classroom -- all with one teacher -- including kids that can read, and those that cannot, and even conduct disorders . . . . is going to make ANYONE in the mix somehow run faster?

The only folks running faster will be those trying get away from such moronic mis-management.

Where do folks dream up this nonsense?

What is really going on where the lowest standards are now the goal? I do see that across many levels of the bottom and sinking middle class.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:51 AM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,521,015 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
If you talk to the parents, they will say it is a flight to quality. But ask them the specific reason and almost every time they will say that they believe their children will be in physical danger at the high school.
If you do not have physical safety, FIRST, education is just a daydream.

But to help you understand the larger picture -- Here is the sort of Maslow's Hierarchy applied to education . . .

1. Safety.
2. Emotional and Character Matters.
3. Quality Education

Things work in that order ONLY. So if the folks you are dealing with do not even have Safety, of course there is little to no Quality Education.

Quote:

The other two schools in my example are private high schools. My point was that the private schools that parents moving their children too provide a worse education than the public high school did when it had the resources of all three populations.
No, sorry, I follow your (mis-applied) point. Key point you seem intent on missing is the 15 YEAR span. You may be observing lower standards across those 15 years that totally over-shadow the Who, and What portions.

Quote:

Take a look around you. The best performing public schools and private schools have enormous donor foundations supporting them. They have large networks of volunteers. The monetary value of donated time in those districts is enormous.
They have support because . . . wait for it . . . THEY HAVE HIGH STANDARDS.

Maybe think of this like a restaurant.

Do folks want to eat in a restaurant with Good Food or Crap Food?

Do folks want to support and go to schools with Good Education or Crap Education?

Quote:

But I was specifically responding to the assertion that low SES low performing district will have an enormous flood of donated support to lift them up.
No one said that. I said when they become a total crap hole, some Emergency Room and Rescue Ranger type folks tend to swarm as they get a buzz from the crisis.

Think Katrina. If all the folks involved acted like they had some wits, and everyone worked together and headed out -- No Crisis, No Rescue Rangers needed.

Quote:
My personal experience was that the opposite happened. As a district's SES and performance dropped, donors went elsewhere.
Of course. Donors do not tend to support chronic failure. This is why folks with the capacity to be donors have money to start with. They do not invest in and reinforce failure.

But the donors were never needed in this case to start with. There is already plenty of money. It is just being stolen by crooked administrators.
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,752,166 times
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Stolen to... where?

You keep saying the money is being stolen.

Where does that stolen money go? Local administrator salaries? The district has its lowest budget for administrators in its history. In teacher salaries? Same thing, as well as special ed and support staff. In construction? The high school is 55 years old, never remodeled. The middle school building is 109 years old, last remodeled over 55 years ago (when it was the old high school).

Where has the stolen money gone?
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:38 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,521,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marigolds6 View Post
Stolen to... where?

You keep saying the money is being stolen.

Where does that stolen money go? Local administrator salaries? The district has its lowest budget for administrators in its history. In teacher salaries? Same thing, as well as special ed and support staff. In construction? The high school is 55 years old, never remodeled. The middle school building is 109 years old, last remodeled over 55 years ago (when it was the old high school).

Where has the stolen money gone?
Your operation may be an exception.

But I have personally seen it first hand from the MegaDollar Massive districts (Hundred of thousand students + over a Billion dollar budget) down to small town (some thousand student + 10 Millions dollar budget).

The Game is the same -- just scaled to meet the community standards.

Money is routed in very general terms on the big picture budgets. When you get to the drill downs are when the funny stuff starts showing up. Thousand dollars invoices paid -- but the supplies never delivered. Kickback schemes. Invoices and checks disappeared. Expense budgets. on and on.

But like I say -- your district may be an exception.

How much is your district's total operating budget and how many kids?

And what city?
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