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My understanding is that today's vo-tech is much more sophisticated then it was when I was in school. Just think of the diagnostics that mechanics do when you take your car into a shop. There is a huge stigma in our area for the kids that choose "tech" instead of the college AP/honors route even though it makes a heck of a lot more sense. Nevertheless ALL students have to have math through Alg. II to graduate.
If you can run a diagnostic tool, utilizing protocols such as OBD-II, or EOBD (or JOBD), the device does 90% of the work at creating a diagnosis. The remainder is replacing the failed/malfunctioning component. The concept of a 'tune-up' has almost disappeared. Now it is mostly routine maintenance. The feedback mechanisms on the control systems will compensate for a wide range of deficiencies (i.e. fault-tolerance).
Some inner-city schools get zip. No AP, no voc-tech training. There's tax money to build new jails, though...
Which city is that? It's certainly not the case in Denver. DPS has more money per student than many suburban districts.
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Originally Posted by annerk
I'd rather see them get vo-tech than AP. Letting kids graduate with real world skills that will allow them to walk into jobs will keep them off the streets. Smart kids with good grades and SAT scores will still get into college, even without AP classes.
The schools have to meet the needs of ALL kids. Now before someone fires up the keyboard to tell me there are some students whose needs just can't be met, yes, I agree. But that's not what I'm talking about.
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Originally Posted by annerk
My point exactly. There is no reason for someone who is on a Vo-Tech track for cosmetology or autobody/mechanics repair to have to take two years of algebra. None. Zip. Zero. All that will do is increase the drop-out rate. What good does that accomplish?
By the way--engines are now easier to diagnose and repair than they used to be. They are all modular and the ECM tells the computer exactly what is wrong. Replace the bad injector and fixed. In the past the mechanic had to truly understand the engine and how it worked, and be able to detect the problem just by listening and driving the vehicle. Brakes are one of the the things that are still diagnosed and repaired that way.
Why do you want to relegate these kids to doing makeup or changing oil the rest of their lives? As has been pointed out, auto mechanics has gotten pretty technical these days. I would hope my mechanic can do the math required to fix my car safely. You can't always rely on what the computer tells you, just like you can't always rely on the GPS to get you to your destination. The person using the tool has to know what they're doing. Otherwise, the customer gets the car home, and it's still doing the same thing that s/he brought it in for, even though the mechanics dinked around with it for hours. More education never hurt anyone. I think pretty much "anyone" can pass algebra.
Which city is that? It's certainly not the case in Denver. DPS has more money per student than many suburban districts.
I don't think of Denver as being "inner-city" even in the "inner-city." There is no comparison to Detroit, Gary, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, etc. One of the reasons DPS has more money per student is that they don't have the overwhelming poverty and blight that significantly impact their tax roles and student population.
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The schools have to meet the needs of ALL kids. Now before someone fires up the keyboard to tell me there are some students whose needs just can't be met, yes, I agree. But that's not what I'm talking about.
Since when is an AP class a "need"? Preparing a student for life after graduation is a "need." That life might be college-bound or might be into a career. You don't need AP classes to get into college, you do need vo-tech training if you aren't on a college path. Otherwise you're just graduating a series of statistics.
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Why do you want to relegate these kids to doing makeup or changing oil the rest of their lives?
Because for some kids, that's what they have the aptitude for. Some kids have family situations which preclude them from considering college. Giving them a leg up into a career where they can make a living will keep them off welfare and the streets. Not everyone can or should go to college. My brother is a Mensa member. He works as a custom woodworker. He's happy and he makes six figures. Without student loans. You are just another who wants to force the square peg into the round hole and looks down on those who don't choose a college path.
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As has been pointed out, auto mechanics has gotten pretty technical these days. I would hope my mechanic can do the math required to fix my car safely. You can't always rely on what the computer tells you, just like you can't always rely on the GPS to get you to your destination. The person using the tool has to know what they're doing. Otherwise, the customer gets the car home, and it's still doing the same thing that s/he brought it in for, even though the mechanics dinked around with it for hours. More education never hurt anyone. I think pretty much "anyone" can pass algebra.
You don't need algebra to fix a car. A good mechanic will diagnose your car by listening to it, not by using their engineering degree to determine the amount of back pressure might indicate a slight crack in a piston. They'll flush the radiator and look for oil in the anti-freeze to determine a cracked head. No math needed. In fact the average mechanic uses the majority of their math skills to figure out your bill. They figure out how much time they spent, multiply it by the hourly rate, mark up the parts, add in the shop charges, and there you go. Fifth grade math at best. It doesn't matter whether "anyone" can pass algebra or not, it matters if they need to. Why make a kid struggle with it if it's likely going to cause them to drop out when it's nothing they will every use in their lifetime?
Not everyone likes school, not everyone plans on being a rocket scientist, and over half of the potential career paths for anyone requires no algebra. I've spent my career in marketing, sales, paralegal, the transportation industry, creative I/T (no hard core coding although I understand it in concept), and the financial services sector, and have never, ever used algebra. The 100+a=150 example given earlier was taught in 5th grade math and I don't consider that algebra.
You don't need algebra to fix a car. A good mechanic will diagnose your car by listening to it, not by using their engineering degree to determine the amount of back pressure might indicate a slight crack in a piston. They'll flush the radiator and look for oil in the anti-freeze to determine a cracked head. No math needed. In fact the average mechanic uses the majority of their math skills to figure out your bill. They figure out how much time they spent, multiply it by the hourly rate, mark up the parts, add in the shop charges, and there you go. Fifth grade math at best. It doesn't matter whether "anyone" can pass algebra or not, it matters if they need to. Why make a kid struggle with it if it's likely going to cause them to drop out when it's nothing they will every use in their lifetime?
How do you know they will never use it in their lifetime? Maybe after 15 years of being a mechanic that mechanic wants to pursue a college degree. Don't you think that they should have been exposed to the type of math they will need in college, even if they need a refresher course?
The vast majority of people can pass algebra. I think that algebra is something that all people should study. It is the very basis of more abstract math and if we are to prepare kids to be able to study advanced math, they should have algebra. Since kids do not know what they want to do when they are freshmen in high school (14 years old) they should all have to pass it to graduate from high school. Wouldn't it be a shame that failure to give a child the fundamentals of math at age 14 keeps him from his goal at 30?
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Originally Posted by annerk
Not everyone likes school, not everyone plans on being a rocket scientist, and over half of the potential career paths for anyone requires no algebra. I've spent my career in marketing, sales, paralegal, the transportation industry, creative I/T (no hard core coding although I understand it in concept), and the financial services sector, and have never, ever used algebra. The 100+a=150 example given earlier was taught in 5th grade math and I don't consider that algebra.
Algebra is not only for rocket scientists. Despite your protests the example you list above is indeed algebra. I find it difficult to believe you have never used it in your life.
How do you know they will never use it in their lifetime? Maybe after 15 years of being a mechanic that mechanic wants to pursue a college degree. Don't you think that they should have been exposed to the type of math they will need in college, even if they need a refresher course?
After 15 years they will need to start at a community college where they can take algebra IF it's a requirement for the career they are looking at. Let's look at it from another angle. I think all kids need to take autobody vo-tech in case they decide to make a career change from accounting when they turn 30. See how ridiculous your statement is?
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The vast majority of people can pass algebra. I think that algebra is something that all people should study. It is the very basis of more abstract math and if we are to prepare kids to be able to study advanced math, they should have algebra. Since kids do not know what they want to do when they are freshmen in high school (14 years old) they should all have to pass it to graduate from high school. Wouldn't it be a shame that failure to give a child the fundamentals of math at age 14 keeps him from his goal at 30?
It would be more of a shame for that kid to drop out because he is being forced to take classes that he struggles with and doesn't need. Should he decide on a career change down the road, he can take the classes he needs to in order to catch up. Most of the people I know in the skilled trades love their jobs and knew in high school that was the career they wanted to pursue--many are now in their 50's with no desire to change. Despite your algebra, you obviously aren't a big picture thinker.
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Algebra is not only for rocket scientists. Despite your protests the example you list above is indeed algebra. I find it difficult to believe you have never used it in your life.
Face it, we all learned some rudimentary bits of algebra long before we took it. But the brunt of algebra is not something that half of the population will ever use in their career. Like I said, for those who are not on a college track, there is no reason to force them to take algebra when a business math or bookkeeping class would be far more appropriate and useful in their career. Should they decide to change careers, they can always take the classes they need to catch up before matriculating. I haven't used anything math related I learned after 7th or 8th grade math in my career or life--ever. (I take that back, I took a business math class in college that has proven very useful.)
Last edited by annerk; 09-11-2012 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: added info
I don't think of Denver as being "inner-city" even in the "inner-city." There is no comparison to Detroit, Gary, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, etc. One of the reasons DPS has more money per student is that they don't have the overwhelming poverty and blight that significantly impact their tax roles and student population.
Since when is an AP class a "need"? Preparing a student for life after graduation is a "need." That life might be college-bound or might be into a career. You don't need AP classes to get into college, you do need vo-tech training if you aren't on a college path. Otherwise you're just graduating a series of statistics.
Because for some kids, that's what they have the aptitude for. Some kids have family situations which preclude them from considering college. Giving them a leg up into a career where they can make a living will keep them off welfare and the streets. Not everyone can or should go to college. My brother is a Mensa member. He works as a custom woodworker. He's happy and he makes six figures. Without student loans. You are just another who wants to force the square peg into the round hole and looks down on those who don't choose a college path.
You don't need algebra to fix a car. A good mechanic will diagnose your car by listening to it, not by using their engineering degree to determine the amount of back pressure might indicate a slight crack in a piston. They'll flush the radiator and look for oil in the anti-freeze to determine a cracked head. No math needed. In fact the average mechanic uses the majority of their math skills to figure out your bill. They figure out how much time they spent, multiply it by the hourly rate, mark up the parts, add in the shop charges, and there you go. Fifth grade math at best. It doesn't matter whether "anyone" can pass algebra or not, it matters if they need to. Why make a kid struggle with it if it's likely going to cause them to drop out when it's nothing they will every use in their lifetime?
Not everyone likes school, not everyone plans on being a rocket scientist, and over half of the potential career paths for anyone requires no algebra. I've spent my career in marketing, sales, paralegal, the transportation industry, creative I/T (no hard core coding although I understand it in concept), and the financial services sector, and have never, ever used algebra. The 100+a=150 example given earlier was taught in 5th grade math and I don't consider that algebra.
I just love you guys who like to talk about the inner-city, and then when someone comes along and says, "That's not how it is in MY city", say, "Oh, but your city doesn't have these porblems that OTHER cities have". Sorry, Denver has its share of the above, and also a significant percentage of kids who do not speak English as a first language, including some who don't speak much if any English at all b/c they arrived yesterday from an impoverished life in Mexico. They have kids coming and going to Mexico all the time. Enough problems to go around. The Colorado legislature does, in its wisdom, give more money to school districts with high levels of poverty. It's not just in Denver.
Most colleges like to see students take the most challenging classes possible. While I think AP has gotten out of hand some places, I have no problem with AP classes to challenge these kids. It's not just the struggling kids who get bored with school and become discipline problems.
Your third paragraph, particularly the bold, is demeaning to many students. Then you go on to give an example of your brother, who is not one of these kids who does not have the aptitude for college. There are a few family situations that may preclude full-time, live on campus study at college, but most people can find a way. The current retirement age is 67 for full SS benefits. It may be older by the time these kids get there. That means they will be out of high school for at least the better part of 50 years before retiring. Do you think their family situations will never change? Like Momma_bear, I think the vast majority of average HS students can take and pass algebra I, probably algebra II as well. Passing algebra will give them a chance to go back to college to change careers if they decide some time in those 50 years that they do not want to do nails or fix cars any more.
I have spent 40 years in nursing, and I do have to use algebra.
Example 1: Suzy needs 750 mg of an antibiotic, injected. The med comes in a powder form, 1000 mg of dry powder to a vial. It needs to be constitued with 2.2 ml lidocaine. How much by volume will be injected into Suzy? Compute.
Example 2: Johnny needs 15 mg/kg of a med. He weighs 7 kg. The med comes in vials of 100 mg/ml. How much, by volume,will need to be injected into Johnny?
I just love you guys who like to talk about the inner-city, and then when someone comes along and says, "That's not how it is in MY city", say, "Oh, but your city doesn't have these porblems that OTHER cities have". Sorry, Denver has its share of the above, and also a significant percentage of kids who do not speak English as a first language, including some who don't speak much if any English at all b/c they arrived yesterday from an impoverished life in Mexico. They have kids coming and going to Mexico all the time. Enough problems to go around. The Colorado legislature does, in its wisdom, give more money to school districts with high levels of poverty. It's not just in Denver.
I live in Florida, don't try to lecture me about ESL--we have to deal with not just Spanish but also Creole in this area. Colorado is in the top 20% of states in per capita income. There is a lot of money to fund education.
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Most colleges like to see students take the most challenging classes possible. While I think AP has gotten out of hand some places, I have no problem with AP classes to challenge these kids. It's not just the struggling kids who get bored with school and become discipline problems.
Again, AP classes are not required. Rather than offering AP classes, raise the bar on the regular college track curriculum but don't force non-college bound kids to take classes that are irrelevant to them. Offer business math as an alternative.
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Your third paragraph, particularly the bold, is demeaning to many students. Then you go on to give an example of your brother, who is not one of these kids who does not have the aptitude for college.
Aptitude doesn't equal intelligence. Aptitude is more related to talent and interest. I don't have a degree, yet I have an aptitude for sales and an innate talent within the (blue collar) industry I work in. Therefore I've been successful--moreso than many who have degrees and work in the same industry.
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There are a few family situations that may preclude full-time, live on campus study at college, but most people can find a way.
And we're back to not all kids WANT to go to college. Are you advocating that everyone needs to go to college no matter what they'd like to pursue for a career? Or are you saying that anyone without a degree is a stupid loser?
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The current retirement age is 67 for full SS benefits. It may be older by the time these kids get there. That means they will be out of high school for at least the better part of 50 years before retiring. Do you think their family situations will never change? Like Momma_bear, I think the vast majority of average HS students can take and pass algebra I, probably algebra II as well. Passing algebra will give them a chance to go back to college to change careers if they decide some time in those 50 years that they do not want to do nails or fix cars any more.
Again, anyone going to college 15 or more years after high school is going to need to start with some remedial classes--algebra can be one of them. It's taught at community college.
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I have spent 40 years in nursing, and I do have to use algebra.
Example 1: Suzy needs 750 mg of an antibiotic, injected. The med comes in a powder form, 1000 mg of dry powder to a vial. It needs to be constitued with 2.2 ml lidocaine. How much by volume will be injected into Suzy? Compute.
Example 2: Johnny needs 15 mg/kg of a med. He weighs 7 kg. The med comes in vials of 100 mg/ml. How much, by volume,will need to be injected into Johnny?
You are an RN. You are in a science related field where of course generally speaking, algebra will be needed. Big difference between you and the guy who writes the dining and entertainment column for the local newspaper or the graphic artist who designs licensed apparel for professional sports teams. That said, I doubt a CNA or even many LPN's would ever use algebra in their careers.
Colorado is in the top 20% of states in per capita income. There is a lot of money to fund education.
You have exactly NO clue about Colorado politics. We are near the bottom in education funding, by any measure. Ever heard of TABOR?
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I don't have a degree
Ahh!
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And we're back to not all kids WANT to go to college. Are you advocating that everyone needs to go to college no matter what they'd like to pursue for a career? Or are you saying that anyone without a degree is a stupid loser?
You are putting words in my mouth. I think high school students should be prepared such that anyone who WANTS to go to college can, w/o a lot of remediation. I have made that position very clear on these boards. It is ridiculous to think that everyone is going to stick one career during their working lives.
Many medical offices are staffed mainly with CMAs (certified medical assistants). They get a year of education/training. They have to figure the kind of problems I posted. If you don't think graphic artists need to use math, you have another think coming.
You have exactly NO clue about Colorado politics. We are near the bottom in education funding, by any measure. Ever heard of TABOR?
All the more reason to not be spending money on classes that benefit a small percentage of students and create the potential to raise the drop-out rate for those that aren't super-snowflake perfect students.
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Ahh!
I'll tell you the rest of the story. The summer between my junior and senior year I was given the opportunity of a lifetime--a job where I traveled the world and made $60K a year (this was in the 80's--so that was a good chunk of coin) and would be working along movers and shakers in the industry--it would be the equivalent of wanting to work for Microsoft and becoming Bill Gates' personal apprentice in the 90's--however I had to choose between the job and staying in school. Of course I chose the job, only a fool wouldn't have done so. When that part of my career was winding down I could have gone back to school, however I decided for any number of reasons not to. It certainly hasn't hurt my career. I'm sure you think I'm a stupid loser because I don't have a degree, that's fine with me as I laugh all the way to the bank.
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You are putting words in my mouth. I think high school students should be prepared such that anyone who WANTS to go to college can, w/o a lot of remediation. I have made that position very clear on these boards. It is ridiculous to think that everyone is going to stick one career during their working lives.
And it's also ridiculous to think that everyone will ever choose a career path that requires college. I'd rather give kids the tools they can use in their working lives than pigeon-hole them into a college track that gives them all the more reason to drop out.
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Many medical offices are staffed mainly with CMAs (certified medical assistants). They get a year of education/training. They have to figure the kind of problems I posted. If you don't think graphic artists need to use math, you have another think coming.
There's a difference between a CMA and a CNA and an LPN.
I worked as a graphic artist in my creative I/T years, no algebra required. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and percentages, but zero algebra. Are you a graphic artist? Ever work as one?
All the more reason to not be spending money on classes that benefit a small percentage of students and create the potential to raise the drop-out rate for those that aren't super-snowflake perfect students.
I'll tell you the rest of the story. The summer between my junior and senior year I was given the opportunity of a lifetime--a job where I traveled the world and made $60K a year (this was in the 80's--so that was a good chunk of coin) and would be working along movers and shakers in the industry--it would be the equivalent of wanting to work for Microsoft and becoming Bill Gates' personal apprentice in the 90's--however I had to choose between the job and staying in school. Of course I chose the job, only a fool wouldn't have done so. When that part of my career was winding down I could have gone back to school, however I decided for any number of reasons not to. It certainly hasn't hurt my career. I'm sure you think I'm a stupid loser because I don't have a degree, that's fine with me as I laugh all the way to the bank.
And it's also ridiculous to think that everyone will ever choose a career path that requires college. I'd rather give kids the tools they can use in their working lives than pigeon-hole them into a college track that gives them all the more reason to drop out.
There's a difference between a CMA and a CNA and an LPN.
I worked as a graphic artist in my creative I/T years, no algebra required. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and percentages, but zero algebra. Are you a graphic artist? Ever work as one?
Once again, I wish you'd quit putting words in my mouth. I don't think you're a stupid loser, I don't even talk like that.
I have some friends who are graphic artists. They needed to take math.
I have been a nurse for 40+ years. I know what those health care jobs are.
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A good mechanic will diagnose your car by listening to it, not by using their engineering degree to determine the amount of back pressure might indicate a slight crack in a piston. They'll flush the radiator and look for oil in the anti-freeze to determine a cracked head. No math needed. In fact the average mechanic uses the majority of their math skills to figure out your bill. They figure out how much time they spent, multiply it by the hourly rate, mark up the parts, add in the shop charges, and there you go. Fifth grade math at best. It doesn't matter whether "anyone" can pass algebra or not, it matters if they need to. Why make a kid struggle with it if it's likely going to cause them to drop out when it's nothing they will every use in their lifetime? 
