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So what? Maybe you will understand so what when one of these "ineffective" or worse incompetent, teachers, janitors, CFO's or more importantly police officers, doctors or nurses affect somebody in your life.
In some cases being ineffective is of little consequence, in other cases it is of greater consequence.
And as mentioned in another post, there is a difference between ineffective and incompetent. I supposed I can live with 1 or 2 ineffective teachers along the path of my children's education. But incompetent does a lot more damage. And I'm afraid there are teachers that are even worse than simply incompetent.
So What? Wow
Moving the goal posts a whole lot aren't you? Incompetent and ineffective are not the same thing. And I clearly said ineffective. Yet you respond with a rant about incompetence. If you have to respond to something I didn't even say, it doesn't say much about your point or its relevance.
My daughter and siblings have had ineffective teachers. They survived, and well. An ineffective teacher does not ruin someone's education.
How did you get into college with a 1.67 GPA in high school?
I was accepted to a university right out of high school. I assume it had something to do with my ACT scores (I scored very high in both math and science back in a day when no one prepped for the test). I couldn't go because I couldn't afford it though (The government said my father could afford to pay my way but he wasn't about to spend one dime on my education as he considered it wasted money.). Later I went to community college, while working, where I graduated with a high enough GPA to be given a full ride to university.
Moving the goal posts a whole lot aren't you? Incompetent and ineffective are not the same thing. And I clearly said ineffective. Yet you respond with a rant about incompetence. If you have to respond to something I didn't even say, it doesn't say much about your point or its relevance.
My daughter and siblings have had ineffective teachers. They survived, and well. An ineffective teacher does not ruin someone's education.
I was replying to this...
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 I have met janitors clearly in the wrong profession and CFOs in the wrong profession.
So what? The nature of any employment combined with human nature means there will always be a bell curve of ability to complete one's job. It is the Lake Wobegone effect. Everyone thinks they are great at their job, are above average intelligence, above average drivers, etc. When in reality most people are average at most things.
Same with teachers. Some of us are great, some of us suck, most of us are in the middle.
1 - How was I moving the goal posts?
2 - In this particular post you did not use the word ineffective.
3- I'm happy that your daughter and siblings survived ineffective teachers. I would hope that all children would manage to do a little better than "survive" their education.
4 - If I was ranting, I was set off by your use of the words "so what". It's that attitude far too many of our teachers have toward the responsiblity they undertake when they choose to be teachers. I'm still amazed by it.
1 - How was I moving the goal posts?
2 - In this particular post you did not use the word ineffective.
3- I'm happy that your daughter and siblings survived ineffective teachers. I would hope that all children would manage to do a little better than "survive" their education.
4 - If I was ranting, I was set off by your use of the words "so what". It's that attitude far too many of our teachers have toward the responsiblity they undertake when they choose to be teachers. I'm still amazed by it.
While you are uber busy twisting what people say, read it again, my daughter survived, AND WELL. She had a couple of less than stellar teacher, even one who was clearly in the bottom 10% of the profession. She still got a free ride to a top school and is doing well there.
So while you are cherry picking which posts and terms you wish to choose, keep in mind that most of us have had a few bad apples in every profession we have had to interact with. If you want to hold teacher as a group to some sort of special standard that other professions do not get held to, PAY THEM LIKE IT. Otherwise complaining that there exists a 10% subset of ineffective teachers is just silly.
Remember what they call that guy or gal who graduated dead last in medical school right? DOCTOR.
American society does not value formal education that much. I don't think this is something new, though. American society has always valued the 'common sense' of 'common folk' over book learnin.'
I was born in the 60s. I went to one elementary school, one junior high school, and two high schools in the Midwest. I pursued and completed degrees at three universities, and took classes in five universities in all. I've sat in on classes at a variety of other universities. The schools my kids attended spanned three elementary schools including two Catholic schools, one junior high school, one high school, one junior college, and one major university. All during this time, I can't remember EVER being aware of or hearing about one incompetent teacher.
I think the focus should be on incompetent parents.
Teaching requires no "competence" that can learned, or imparted through some pedagogical theory. Children in the presence of a person dedicated to teaching them, will learn what the "teacher" can present to them.
The challenging task is not to make people competent to be teachers, but to identify people enthusiastic to be teachers, who will show up every morning ready and willing to educate children, and make the tools available.
I learned much in my childhood from people who were barely literate.
While you are uber busy twisting what people say, read it again, my daughter survived, AND WELL. She had a couple of less than stellar teacher, even one who was clearly in the bottom 10% of the profession. She still got a free ride to a top school and is doing well there.
So while you are cherry picking which posts and terms you wish to choose, keep in mind that most of us have had a few bad apples in every profession we have had to interact with. If you want to hold teacher as a group to some sort of special standard that other professions do not get held to, PAY THEM LIKE IT. Otherwise complaining that there exists a 10% subset of ineffective teachers is just silly.
Remember what they call that guy or gal who graduated dead last in medical school right? DOCTOR.
I'm not the only person cherry picking here. It happens.
So, bottom line. What's your point? Stop complaining about the bad teachers? Not gonna happen.
Part of the issue lies in the criteria for what constitutes an incompetent teacher, an ineffective teacher, a bad teacher, etc.
I guarantee that my most beloved teachers, and ones I learned the most from, are ones that many of my peers and quite possibly their parents found to be "bad." There were also very popular teachers, doubtless considered to be "good" due to their rapport with students, whose instruction I found worthless.
I also, as an adult, teach with a woman who is a VERY talented instructor. She has a true gift for breaking down information for student understanding in a variety of ways that reach an incredibly diverse range of learners, and her subject matter (math) is one that I myself would struggle to teach. On the other hand, her grammar is poor, which hinders her communication in some regards and dents her credibility, she tends to steamroll over students, which among the population we work with (behaviorally disordered) can create as many issues as it addresses, she isn't very approachable, tends to be dismissive, and, the kicker, misses TONS of work (medically approved). So is she a competent teacher or not? Her instructional methods and control are sound. Her rapport, both with students and coworkers, is so-so. Her attendance is abhorrent, but she is legally protected in missing loads of work. Her lack of consistency in attendance hinders student learning. But she knows her subject and how to teach it.
Not everyone has the same measure for what constitutes a quality educator. Few do, in fact. And basing that assessment on governmentally-designed tests that are theoretically designed to measure student competency, but in fact possess many inherent flaws, really doesn't tell much of the story.
What percentage of new hires get fired? If that .3% works out to be 5% of the new hires, they are getting rid of the 5%. Once gone, they're gone. The flaw in your logic is that you'd need to fire 5% every year. You wouldn't. Once they're gone, they're gone. 5% of those remaining don't become incompetent because you cut the dead wood. They're still as competent as they were before. The only way you'd ever need to fire 5% is if you replaced 100% of your teachers in any given year. That's not the way it works. While half of all teachers leave the profession within 5 years, the other half stick around for 30+.
We probably can't fire 5% every year. But in any large workforce at any point in time, there are a non-trivial number of workers not doing their job well (or even adequately). The fired teachers are replaced. Since the fired teachers are the "bottom," the new ones should upgrade the workforce. Some of the new ones will be bad hires, but unless the school district hires badly they are upgrading the workforce. Some the teachers who didn't get fired will deteriorate and should be fired the next year. Some will retire too. And hopefully some marginal teachers that didn't get fired will improve their performance. The great teachers will continue to be great teachers.
(I understated the figures for NYC. Between 2007-2010 only 88 of 80,000 teachers were fired for poor performance. One tenth of one percent. Outside of NYC only 32 of 132,000 teachers between 2006-2011 were fired. Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts)
I will add that great teachers should be rewarded (significantly). If money isn't what they want, reward them with what makes an impact to them.
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I'ver never known of one
