Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-18-2012, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
19,480 posts, read 25,159,022 times
Reputation: 51118

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
Teachers have no authority to do that. Any teacher in my school who even suggested that a student should be removed because they were dangerous would be immediately labeled a lazy, maybe racist, classist, disability-ist, generally discriminatory person who simply didn't know how to handle the child and had basically failed. Often they would be made to seem that they were looking out for themselves or trying to hurt that student on behalf of more privileged students. It was a death sentence. A teacher could only request a meeting with special ed or some committee, and delicately try to suggest that the student might need "additional support," and couch it all in a language that suggested it was all for the benefit of the student and mainly related to academics, not behavior. This would have to happen maybe 100's of times, by different teachers, before any administrator would be willing to consider removing the child from mainstream. And if the child had a parent who objected, no matter who the parent was, that child was sure to be terrorizing classrooms and teachers for many years to come.


Sounds like my school district and all of the neighboring school districts, as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-18-2012, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,109 posts, read 41,277,178 times
Reputation: 45156
Do teachers never file assault charges against students who threaten to injure or actually injure them?

Would filing charges be an alternative if school officials and/or the parents do not agree to alternative placement?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-18-2012, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
19,480 posts, read 25,159,022 times
Reputation: 51118
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Do teachers never file assault charges against students who threaten to injure or actually injure them?

Would filing charges be an alternative if school officials and/or the parents do not agree to alternative placement?
In my suburban school district I can think of a couple of dozen injuries within the last few years that were severe enough that special education teachers had to miss a day or more of school. That included broken bones, severe sprains, nerve damage, vision damage, back injuries, dislocated shoulder and other injuries. If you counted severe bruises and bites that broke the skin it would probably be hundreds of injuries to special education teachers in the last few years. To my knowledge, special education teachers are not permitted to file assault charges.

How many regular education teachers were injuried in the last few years? I believe that one teacher got a black eye while breaking up a fight in the cafeteria. The students involved were both arrested and charged in juvenile court. The school district involved the police not the teacher.The students involved were not special education students.

About 15 years ago one of the special education teachers was so fed up with the violence and severe behavior problems of one of her students that she went to a judge and got a restaining order against this student. (BTW when he was my student I was out twice for a week each time due to being injured by him). In some ways it helped, the district transferred him to a special school for severely handicapped students. However, the district was so angry at the teacher that they transferred her to a different school to a position that she specifically requested not to teach and forced her to take early retirement a year later.

Does that give you a better idea about how tightly our hands are tied?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-18-2012, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,109 posts, read 41,277,178 times
Reputation: 45156
I'm at a loss for words.

I guess the question is what needs to be done to change the situation. I am sure there are plenty of us who had no idea. What can we do to help?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Paradise
3,663 posts, read 5,676,018 times
Reputation: 4865
In my district, and I thought this was nationwide since sped laws are federal, if the student misses more than 10 days of school due to disciplinary reasons, the school must supply the student with a teacher to work with him or her at home if the student has an IEP. It is rather expensive and no one wants to pay for it, therefore, administration is reluctant to go past that 10 day period.

Also, we have manifestation determination from time to time and a group comprised of a sped teacher, a regular ed teacher, and the parent (I think). Anyway, if the group determines that the child's behavior is a direct result of the disability, then the child cannot be disciplined for behavior. My understanding is that, originally, manifestation determinations were for students who had Tourette's or something similar and absolutely could not control their behavior. I have seen it applied too liberally with kids who are out of control for other reasons. When that happens, and it frequently does, the inmates are running the asylum.

The way to change this is to pressure representatives to change federal laws. Every single sped child should be held as accountable for their actions as a non IEP student. It will never happen, though, because people not in a classroom have this vision of a sped student with a cherub face and slower learning abilities than the average person. Anyone who dares to imply that something needs to change in the federal laws will be labeled as uncaring. A group like the ACLU will get involved "to preserve the rights of the most vulnerable of our society" and then it gets dropped because it is a no win situation for whoever is involved.

The thing is, that determining whether or not a student should receive sped services is largely determined by a test administered by a sped teacher. If they score low, they can be given sped services and protections. I have asked before, on several occasions, how do we tell whether the child failed because he or she is behind on their skills or because the student is actually developmentally delayed? I basically get a shrug. There is no way to tell a lot of times. I had a student whose mother understood the system and instructed her child to fail the test. He was highly intelligent, but received sped services. Mom was insane, btw - I'm sure there is paperwork on her somewhere. The kid became one of the school's worst behavior problems and damn near got away with murder. Luckily, he did not get a manifestation determination and when he cocked his arm back to threaten a PE teacher, he was finally expelled.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,803 posts, read 41,019,978 times
Reputation: 62204
They should have big muscular bouncers in schools and teachers should wear life-alert type buttons around their neck to summon them. When a kid acts up in the classroom the bouncers should come in, pick the kid up and throw him/her out the front door of the school just like an obnoxious drunk in a bar.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
2,259 posts, read 4,754,204 times
Reputation: 2346
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
They should have big muscular bouncers in schools and teachers should wear life-alert type buttons around their neck to summon them. When a kid acts up in the classroom the bouncers should come in, pick the kid up and throw him/her out the front door of the school just like an obnoxious drunk in a bar.
I remember reading a story where something similar had happened. Some kindergarten kid was trashing the classroom throwing chairs hitting people etc...the teachers didn't know what to do so they called the cops and had the kid cuffed to a chair. Well mom found out and all hell broke loose, she was accusing the school, and the teachers of being nothing more than racists monsters who have to call the cops on kids.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
19,480 posts, read 25,159,022 times
Reputation: 51118
Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
In my suburban school district I can think of a couple of dozen injuries within the last few years that were severe enough that special education teachers had to miss a day or more of school. That included broken bones, severe sprains, nerve damage, vision damage, back injuries, dislocated shoulder and other injuries. If you counted severe bruises and bites that broke the skin it would probably be hundreds of injuries to special education teachers in the last few years. To my knowledge, special education teachers are not permitted to file assault charges.

How many regular education teachers were injuried in the last few years? I believe that one teacher got a black eye while breaking up a fight in the cafeteria. The students involved were both arrested and charged in juvenile court. The school district involved the police not the teacher.The students involved were not special education students.

About 15 years ago one of the special education teachers was so fed up with the violence and severe behavior problems of one of her students that she went to a judge and got a restaining order against this student. (BTW when he was my student I was out twice for a week each time due to being injured by him). In some ways it helped, the district transferred him to a special school for severely handicapped students. However, the district was so angry at the teacher that they transferred her to a different school to a position that she specifically requested not to teach and forced her to take early retirement a year later.

Does that give you a better idea about how tightly our hands are tied?
I should clarify two things. Not all public school districts have as many problems or as severe problems as in my district. We have a very long history (dating back to at least 1975) where we accepted students that other school districts did not want to serve. Although it has changed in recent years, neighboring school districts would keep their "easy to handle" special education students and transfer the more difficult or more complex students to our school district and pay tuition for our services. Our district has the reputation of keeping students (not transferring them to speciality schools) even if they are extremely difficult or hard to teach. Parents around our metro area know this and some would move to our school district because of that unwritten policy.

As a concrete example, over the years I have taught five different students who were (warning, phrase not politically correct) blind/deaf/physically handicapped with additional severe medical problems. Most special education teachers in a typical public school can teach their entire career without even having even one student with such complex educational needs.

Second clarification, technically it is not "my" district anymore. I was unable to physically handle the amount of restaining needed in my classroom with violent, out of control students so I took early retirement several years ago. Ironically, the law has now changed and teachers, except in very rare, very specific cases, are not allowed to restraint students any more. But, I do not regret retiring (except that my pension is only 30% of my former paycheck).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 11:34 AM
 
1,475 posts, read 2,556,371 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by topher5150 View Post
I was listening to the local radio morning show and they had a a teacher e-mail the show about how her hands are tied to do anything really in terms of discipline...
Education should *not* be about punishing students. It should be about education! Sounds obvious, but it doesn't play out that way in the real world. First, as mentioned by others here, brick-n-mortor is torture for kids. The system is performing poorly and should be reworked.

A big problem is that teachers become like their students over the years. They start to behave as children, somewhat equal to the age group they teach. This is yet another reason teaching should be about education not discipline or other unrelated issues.

Teachers should not be diagnosing anyone. They should only have to "question" a childs ability to follow the educational process. Then someone who is not teaching every day should look into that. The teacher should go back to teaching.

I know that in the real world some parents dump their kids onto the school system so the parents don't have to deal with them. That's a big problem needing addressed outside the educational system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2012, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Paradise
3,663 posts, read 5,676,018 times
Reputation: 4865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_CD View Post

A big problem is that teachers become like their students over the years. They start to behave as children, somewhat equal to the age group they teach.
Explain yourself here.

Quote:
...teaching should be about education not discipline or other unrelated issues.
Yes

Quote:
Teachers should not be diagnosing anyone. They should only have to "question" a childs ability to follow the educational process. Then someone who is not teaching every day should look into that. The teacher should go back to teaching.

I know that in the real world some parents dump their kids onto the school system so the parents don't have to deal with them. That's a big problem needing addressed outside the educational system.
(Emphasis mine)

Wouda, coulda, shoulda. It's not what is happening and there is no effort to bring this about.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top