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Somehow, we've reached the point where parents use their children to one up each other. Maybe these parents don't have enough of their own success so they're using their kids.
OP-See post 80. If you even mention that your child is smart you are either:
1. Boasting.
2. Lying
3. Living vicariously through your children.
Get used to it. Ivorytickler is not the only one who will say these things to you.
It's not necessary to rely on anecdotes. The correlation between IQ and classroom grades is known to be about 0.5. Whether a correlation of 0.5 is "large" or not can be argued, as r-squared is 0.25 (the variable explains about 25% of the variation).
But the correlation is positive. This means -- unlike several insinuations appearing above -- that smarter kids have higher grades, and kids with higher grades are smarter kids, statistically, ceteris paribus. If the situation were reversed, the correlation coefficient would be negative. When the situation is actually reversed anecdotally, the particular teacher needs to do some serious self-examination. Moreover, there is not a shred of evidence that dumb kids are more highly motivated than smart kids, again despite several insinuations appearing above.
These insinuations that invert logic and common sense are a cultural thing -- they're right out of the fantasy known as "the American myth," colored by the phenomenon known as "sour grapes." I doubt very seriously if you hear teachers in Asia deriding students who receive the highest grades in their classes. Maybe that's one reason why Asian students are beating the pants off American students in difficult subjects -- their culture has some respect for students who actually do well and master the basics.
When I taught at a research-1 university I was discouraged by so many incoming freshmen who could think and bloviate "originally" about this and that but couldn't add two fractions or write a coherent sentence. The time for "original" thinking is during the thesis/dissertation stage, not during high school.
Your grandmother or grandfather could have told you most of this . . .
Bold part. That is correlation between KNOWLEDGE (and motivation to learn) and IQ test scores.
The myth that you're speaking is very true and you're one of the folks who perpetuate it. Yes, grades are very important, I cannot agree more with you, those who say otherwise are terribly wrong. But grades are rather an instrument to DEMOTIVATE pupils. Children who perform well are accustomed to success. Sometimes they underperform or the teacher "damages" their success due to having a bad day (either teacher has some personal issues or the child had a bad day or they simply went inactive for a while). Bad grade has much terrible result to spoil a good student than the good grade has to correct a bad student. Another thing is that teachers cannot and do not want to do the more deep insight - they're just humans who are paid to do the job and the system is not set up well either. Another factor are children in the classroom. Unfortunately again, bad children are going to be the main focus of everyone's attention. It's like bad apples. Especially for good pupils who are often spending time with them during breaks... because "cool factor" plays its role as well.
Parents thus need to focus on keeping their children on the road to success and keep them motivated to learn - and many things are stacked against them. Keeping their children focused on studying and fend off demotivating factors: helping them to realize they either didn't study hard enough, or that they must learn in spite of teacher who gave them lower grade while rewarding someone else, and you need to be a really good to send this message without "tutoring", this means giving them relevant feedback without making studying a "chore", but a source of their competition.... and to help them to distance from the bad kids in class who they have to sit with - that's a hard part as well, due to many sociological factors.
Unfortunately you don't realize this - you are one of those who perpetuate a myth of "gifted children" and you give an excuse to the parents. You think that Asians are so much more intelligent to score better in schools? No, it's that they have parents who ingrained valuing KNOWLEDGE and not "genetics" into their kids, and they did it much better than U.S. parents.
Everything starts with parents and they are the driving force of their child's success. I can't and won't argue situations like Down's syndrome, but 98% of children are perfectly good to succeed. Yet media, psychologists and others are giving parents an excuse - just about everyone is diagnosed with a "debilitating genetic factor" and thus they need to realize that the source of their failure is genetics, while those who succeed are predetermined by birth by vast majority of cases. This just isn't true by any general rule.
Let me tell you, I was your typical nerd in school in terms of success. I won many local, national and even two interstate awards in math (scored 3rd on Balkans games twice). I won 2nd place on a national level in my country during last year of high school, I won prizes in electro-technical competitions on state level and as during Balkans games. So did my three brothers, they also excelled at math and physics. Notice that? It can't be coincidence and it isn't.
We were all great chess players, not international level though, and we never pursued it after our schooling anyways. We competed each others and we won prizes during elementary and high school and I played state-level tournaments as well as an individual member. We were winning school competitions regularly and I won town-tournament two times as well, before I stopped playing.
I was there to meet Gari Kasparov when he came to our country and I met him after many, many years when he played against refugee children (I was in Croatia back then, while he honorarily played for one local chess club "Borovo" Selo near Vukovar, club that was exiled on island of Hvar, Croatia... a place where Bosnian refugees were placed as well). I was honored to earn the right to challenge him after so many years and was thrilled as if I'm kid again - I lost again You see, Karsparov is a great chess player, but he himself told us - practice made him great, aside from intelligence. He told it himself - there were many chessmasters who even held the title without inventing any single relevant new move, unlike Botivnik, Karpov, himself, Alyehin, Spasky, Taly or U.S. chessmaster Fischer. He told us - many of great chessmasters today are in fact having tons of assistants and they spend their youth watching, analyzing and memorizing famous games that were played before, thus they can speed-play against many other players with no difficulty - but they fail with creativity. He told us that intelligence thus plays much less role today than it was decades ago, and definitely much less a hundred years ago, while knowledge plays bigger and bigger role, thus non-creative chessmasters can still stand on top of the ranks. Thus he said that studying chess games always was just like school studying any school subject - obtaining knowledge to stop learning how to walk again and again.
I was very thrilled when he told us: "I hope that chess will earn its own subject one day in schools - that'll make me a great teacher for you today"
The logic behind learning is to keep yourself motivated to suceed. Intelligence plays role only when you explore something completely new, and you're a fool if you re-invent the wheel.
This is also a clear message to all parents out there - raising children and making them good students is a continuing mission. Best way is to set them on the right track early on and motivate them to be and stay winners and to always compare and compete themselves with the best. I was this type and my father made me such. If you give up or transfer your frustrations towards your child when it doesn't do exactly what you want (and note that you're talking with a young child) - you're doing it wrong. it requires lots of patience. unfortunately many parents will give up or not do it as good - then they'll blame teachers and everyone else. It's your job to motivate your child before anyone else, and to motivate your child the best thing is to make it look like a game, not a chore.
From what I see it, I never really was the best among my other natives. I was rather the best among those who were motivated to compete. Those with A's are the ones who are motivated to compete, they were the only ones who competed against me on math competitions - rest of them were ACCUSTOMED TO FAILURE. Mainly by school, their companions, and neglect by their parents.
Only out of that group of folks did the intelligence really matter - and those who received better education always make it less relevant. This is why knowledge plays much bigger role than intelligence in terms of getting there - you basically enter that 2% of population that will compete each other and others are already eliminated, regardless of their intelligence or potential. Remember that well. So, whoever says that neglecting grades is a good thing is lying themselves - they'll slowly get accustomed to underachieve.
I hope you'll understand this. I just want to emphasize the importance of studying instead of "gifted" factor. Einstein was gifted, Tesla was gifted. But they also had to have VAST KNOWLEDGE to make that gift have any use. They had to over-achieve themselves once they had nobody to compete. They had to invent something NEW. You don't do that in school, after all... but that diploma and motivation to compete are very important factors in your life later on - regardless how "useless" the school knowledge for your work is.
MOBY, I would like to return to Mobus's original topic, concerning how surprised you were that one child did four points better on IQ than the other. Since they are male and female twins, they are not identical (identicals are same sex). So, they WILL have differences. As to being more introverted than extroverted, that is strictly a quality of personality, not contributors to a high IQ score. And while their health situations were traumatic months before and after their due date, they have recovered, it sounds to me, quite well.
As for arranging schools, I CAN at least offer this, to one day help you. I think private schools, if it is at all possible, is the way to go, if you want them to be correctly educated, motivated, and not distracted by the reuslts of broken families, crime, and rote learning in public school. There IS a big difference in the success of your children by just that one difference, public vs. private. That's not to say there aren't good public schools; it's just youre best bet.
My brother's son is gifted, and like some others have said here, he was attending college classes and he eventually taught some college courses whilst still in school. Teachers basically will look into this sort of thing as your children get older. And yet, when I was a child, I had a teacher that for some reason didn't like me, usually it's because I'm so talkative, and she actually approached my parents about my having some sort of disorder because I only drew and painted stairs (and I remembeer those things, they were expertly done). Now, it's likely I misunderstood my teacher, but I took stops and goes from end to end, and the first assignment for a finished product was steps (I was in elementary school), so that's what I drew, and I kept drawing them because we were not told to draw anything else (or if she said so, perhaps I was busy talking). OH, YES, the story of the DOWNTRODDEN. smile
Luckily, when I became a working woman, somehow or other I became Assistant News Editor for a sort of small-town daily (my hometown), and went on to become editor of a smaller paper in my home state, prefering being able to do ALL aspects of a paper, the reporting, writing, editing, photography, layout and pasteup. GREAT FUN. And I can draw steps with no problem at all, and I helped my husband with the steps on the deck I helped him build, because he did not know how to do steps. It's the geometry, the play of light and shadow, the worn places, and the wonderous memory those steps provided me, depending on what steps I drew.
Now I draw "Dog Art," which I sometimes call Dog Ink to separate myself with NO website from someone who does have one. This is always the John Ford Western settings, with the buttes and plateaus and eroded rock formations in the desert, complete with big sky, amazing sunrises and sunsets, and I'll get all that mocked in and put a dog in there, which I blow up reall large with a magnifier (I paint miniatures) so he will indeed look like a dog to a man riding by it on a galloping horse. To think, that art lady just might have done me in on art on account of drawing lots of steps. Instead of thinking something was wrong with me (my parents thought she was pretty funny), she could have made some effort to re-tell me what in the hang we were supposed to draw.
Biology WAS taken away from me, when I did a sixty-grade school bio project, I patiently grew a bunch of tadbpoles out in the carport until they reached a certain stage of development, and then put them in some sort of deadly solution, and wrote out the stage and a couple notes that defined it, and it was a huge hassle, but today I won't come near a tadpole, not all that fond of biology in the strictest terms, because my big hulking teacher said, "Anyone could do this!" He gave me a D. I guess he thought I got all the examples from one pond at once or several visits, even tho I tried before being interrupted to explain to him I watched them grow until they reached a stage, plus I knew what I was looking for in the ditch across the street, the very youngest, and that's the only fishing expedition I managed. So, you see, ONE TEACHER, even in private school, can sometimes affect the course of a kid's life. Later I had a stint in public school (I was one to stand up to bullies), lasted about six weeks, nearly ruined me as far as edu-bi-cation. I received none. What turmoil in there! But my small-town high school time was almost like a private school.
But I still think, Mobus, in addition to attending teacher-parent conferences, and staying closely in tune (without being invasive) of your little ones' interests and sour notes, that you putting them in private school will give you the best results. I might add that while skipping grades, which I did, makes the scholwork more challenging, then I had to deal with people older than me that could not relate to me, rather most of my friends were a grade lower, plus my brother a year younger than myself. I do not know how else how bright I was could have been addressed. But I do think at a young age, AT HOME, you CAN teach your children all sorts of relaxing stuff to complement schoolwork, and as for higher-grade students who are studying, say, English Lit, could be watching some Discovery Channel type stuff about the English Tudor Kings and Queens would be helpful in sparking their interest in some of the subjects they may find boring or simply to add into their bank of knowledge.
I apologize for mocking myself and not being clear-headed enough last time I wrote, dear Mobus, for you are just as interested in IQ as we all are. Matter of fact, just a quick look around the web and there are as many diff ideas about what a particular IQ number means as there are people with IQs. Oh, and we were also EQUALLY influenced growing up with the activities our parents involved us in. If we hit on a good one, we did it regular. But I am NOT for the idea of having a whole bunch of CLASSES after school, one would be the max, just a couple times a week. Let's say one of your kids likes to draw and color, then a drawing class for children might work. Music instruments, learning guiltar, or martial arts to improve confidence, crazy about horses so go to the horse stables on the weekend, any of those supplemental things will help them become well-rounded, pleasant and interesting people.
I'm sure you and your children will do quite well, with your persistent interest in this very long thread, I see you just want to do right by them. I'm glad I could participate, the little bit I know, and I'm glad IVORY got in two cents, and many others who make a good deal of sense. But one of the things that struck me the most, Mobbs, in your last note to mem was about how one of your children actually recalled their hospital stay when very little. They trust you, you're the big guy, the corrector, the teacher, the playmate extraodinairre, and really, no kid could ask for anything more, because in the end, even ahead of religion and memorizing 2 + 2 = two twos, is family. Now, go out and fly a kite with them, they'll remember it for the rest of their lives, they'll like coloring on the paper used to make a kite, and laughing at your efforts to get it going. Always, GG
Octa, I don't know what my IQ is. I had my children tested primarily to assure myself that my children would qualify for the G&T schools should we move to a certain district. As far as their scores, I told my family and I have posted on some preemie board hoping to encourage other micropreemie parents that the future is not carved in stone even for the tinies. And I posted here because I thought I could learn something, and I am happy with what I have learned. It's not something I exactly have told everyone I know though granted I want to because I am so damned proud of my children for all they have overcome. It's not proper to boast but I will always be very grateful because my kids could just as easily have been the aphasic kids with CP and IQs of 80.
The idea that some people are smarter than other people is not a myth.
Let me tell you this. If you're smarter than me in learning C-R theorem, GGO, memorize a table of Laplace's transformations, etc... it just means that you'll require LESS TIME to do so (and this also depends on motivation each of us would have, and question is if it's even making a true difference for many people). Notice again that such knowledge won't be needed or relevant for 99% of graduates, but the diploma (paper certificate of your graduation), the attitude of competitiveness and being accustomed to achieve - that's relevant. Thus motivation and knowledge will always trump the genius who re-invents the wheel instead of knowing it already. This is why it's important not to have an excuse why you under-perform, you tend to accustom yourself to failure.
You can be as smart as you want - if you aren't consistent in your learning, you'll fall out. This is what happens over years to people. Parents send their children into school and children are accustomed to success by general rule, plus they are able to comprehend the materials taught in school because they usually know the whole materials for the first year. However, over the time course they lose their will to compete, they lose their step to keep up with the school materials due to neglect, they are slowly demotivated, etc.
Parents seem to react when they notice their children are "turning into themselves" - then they usually get frustrated and try to make studying a chore. Worst thing is when they notice and acknowledge the problems when they have a teenage girl (or especially a boy) who underachieved for years, more and more, and then the problem reached a point where their child cannot keep up with the school material at all, and then they usually even make trouble in the class - because they have nothing else to do. The only solution is to try to correct the problem but it becomes time-consuming and heavily entrenched to the point where people cannot or don't want to deal with it. Some will find a home teacher, some will try to teach them themselves, some will do this and that, but the fact is that majority will acknowledge the fact that the child is failing and will rather go with the "told you so", knocking them down even further. It's like when someone tells them to stop smoking and they keep on smoking each day - some habits are just there .
I cannot emphasize enough that people should STOP accusing others for their child's failure, without realizing that they most probably didn't react on time, they didn't spot the symptoms of their child struggling - they didn't care. And then they expect a teacher in high school to somehow miraculously teach their child when that child just shouldn't even be there, because it isn't capable to follow the school materials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes
There we go. Regarding my earlier comment that this thread has become silly and incompetent: QED.
Check out how children who tend to underperform tend to lower their bar lower and lower, their expectations get lower and lower, unless they somehow get motivated to overcome this problem. They expect to achieve more but they tend to invest less and less will - because they're demotivated. When they fail to meet their expectations and this keeps on going - they don't take it as hard. Environment ruined their potential, regardless of what it was. I was definitely very anxious each time I lost in chess and to the point that it happened very rarely - thus my brother got frustrated instead and he lessened the chsesplay - then our father would play with him, teach him some tricks to keep up - then I'd be losing, then I'd get motivated, etc. We'd push each other more and more and our father never let us get demotivated. Same was in school. He'd push our expectations each time he saw us getting demotivated. When you have a child that cries over a lower grade (girl) or is utterly sad to the point of nearly crying (usually a boy, trying not to cry), you are watching a motivated person who failed to meet their expectations. Parents should then motivate them to learn more to reach their expectations next time, instead of "told you so" or "you weren't reading that book today, go back to studying!" style. That's the "frustration" part. They didn't approach properly to make them learn in joy and that's it. In fact, if you position your child properly prior to school and during first grades, it will require you much less to just re-motivate it when the need arises, to avoid potential pitfalls due to either other kids or teachers or someone else.
But please notice how the children who tend to underperform will react - they'll get very sad, and when failures continue they stop being sad. In one point you may reach the worst scenario - where a child is bashed so much by external factors to the point where it turns it into their success: "you're the worst kid in this school!" - and they're happy to hear it, they achieved something.
If that isn't a proof how grades and punishments aren't the best solution, I don't know what is.
Main thing is that if you make your child fail without motivating it to overcome that failure and overachieve the next time (either in studying or in playing games), you're about to start a vicious cycle that you child cannot exit, only question is how low will it fall over the time. If you're trying to correct it with "told you so" and expecting a child to obey your orders - you're doing it wrong. You aren't giving a true feedback and your "strictness" will backfire. In fact, that isn't strictness, it's expressing your personal unwillingness to deal with it, unwillingness to put yourself in your child's situation and unwillingness to truly work to solve the problem.
One thing is for certain - accustoming someone to being a winner is easy thing and it makes little as long as the child is succeeding. However, dealing with a failure is a much more crucial thing - you need to avoid the "loser mentality" over the course of your child's failures. You need to maintain the motivation to succeed.
He appears to be more of an entrepreneur and a showman in my opinion than a serious scholar, although I have only a superficial knowledge of his work. It seems to me that he has some rather utopian views on doing away with competition in all forms. My belief is that he can write whatever he wants for his audience, but real life is not going to change one way or the other as a result.
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