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That's not evidence they needed the class in the first place. That's evidence of what I've been saying all along which is that what you need to do is get the bottom who can't handle the class out because they slow down the class. It is not evidence that the top benefitted by being separated out. Actually, it's evidence that the MIDDLE benefitted. Where do you think the extra passes came from? The top would have passed anyway in the past. They came from what would have been the middle student in the class. You keep making my argument for me but you can't see that that is what you are doing.
What benefit was this particular class? Is getting credit for a college class in high school some kind of benefit? Does it mean the kids learned more than they would have if they'd just taken it in college? (I'm aware it looks good on an application but that's the only real advantage I see. AP classes are more about weeding students out than anything else. That makes it easier for the colleges to pick who they want but I don't think those AP classes themselves result in the kids doing better in college. I think those same kids would excell in college with or without them.)
That classes do better when you take out the kids who drag them down and a need for higher level classes are two different things. I've been saying all along that I can teach more if you take out the kids who just can't keep up. However, that doesn't mean I think the top need their own special classes. I don't. I think the top does fine with or without them. It hink it's the bottom that really need special classes and I think giving them to them will help teachers to teach more content. Of course the push today is less content and more depth so that's really moot.
If you remove my struggling bottom from my chemistry classes, I can teach more material and get my middle to perform higher too. My top would only benefit by the extra material they'd see but that doesn't mean they need a special class of their own.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-28-2013 at 07:09 AM..
One benefit of AP classes is that you get college credit depending on the score on the exam. In some colleges the higher the score, the more credit you get. My one daughter eliminated her entire freshman year plus a couple more classes - you don't think that is worth a lot of money? Additionally, Ivy League and other selective schools care not only that you passed that exam, but by what score.
I think we are having a communication issue here, the English teacher had more 5's than in the previous 4 years combined but she never mentioned whether she had more passes overall. That was NOT middle or high middle kids getting those 5's, it was the top 32 kids in the school. The middle and high middle weren't in that class.
Because it's not necessary and it doesn't yeild results if they just end up where the other kids are by middle school. The playing field tends to level for kids who were just taught early by the end of elementary school. We'd just be wasting our efforts since they are not going to stay ahead.
Have you not heard of NCLB??? Tracking is a BAD, BAD word. We're not allowed to hold kids back or group them by ability and why would we if the playing field is just going to level anyway. That's an awful lot of effort to go through for no results.
I'm, seriously, questioning what was appropriate for the kids in dd's group. I'm questioning what good any of it did. If they just end up where the other kids are, it's not worth the effort.
What results are you looking to achieve? An appropriate education is not about being ahead. It's about meeting your needs where you are each year.
Most of the kids I know who were in gifted programs in elementary school wind up at our country's top 50 universities/LACs. What other results are you looking for?
What results are you looking to achieve? An appropriate education is not about being ahead. It's about meeting your needs where you are each year.
Most of the kids I know who were in gifted programs in elementary school wind up at our country's top 50 universities/LACs. What other results are you looking for?
Any results to show that it's worth the effort.
Your observations do not qualify as results. Do you have any data to support that kids who go through G&T programs, in general, end up in top 50 universities/LAC's? (Data on specific selective schools won't show this.)
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-28-2013 at 09:03 AM..
Re my kids, I am not desperate; I feel like I am put in the position to defend my observations of them.
You have to get used to this. My kids are 19, 16, 14 and I still feel that I have to defend their status as gifted students. Nothing that they do will ever be enough evidence (for some) that they are, in fact, significantly smarter than the average student.
If you go back and read my original post to you, you will see that I am a big believer in letting kids develop all of their interests. However, there is nothing wrong with seeking the best academic opportunities for your children.
Is getting credit for a college class in high school some kind of benefit? Does it mean the kids learned more than they would have if they'd just taken it in college? (I'm aware it looks good on an application but that's the only real advantage I see. AP classes are more about weeding students out than anything else. That makes it easier for the colleges to pick who they want but I don't think those AP classes themselves result in the kids doing better in college. I think those same kids would excell in college with or without them.)
Taking a class when you are ready for it is the benefit. All kids are entitled to an education that is appropriate for them and kids who are ready for college level material in HS should be able to take those classes without having to wait for college to roll around.
Your observations do not qualify as results. Do you have any data to support that kids who go through G&T programs, in general, end up in top 50 universities/LAC's? (Data on specific selective schools won't show this.)
No I don't have data. While I agree that my personal observations are not data, they do exist and they are all that I have right now.
One benefit of AP classes is that you get college credit depending on the score on the exam. In some colleges the higher the score, the more credit you get. My one daughter eliminated her entire freshman year plus a couple more classes - you don't think that is worth a lot of money? Additionally, Ivy League and other selective schools care not only that you passed that exam, but by what score.
I think we are having a communication issue here, the English teacher had more 5's than in the previous 4 years combined but she never mentioned whether she had more passes overall. That was NOT middle or high middle kids getting those 5's, it was the top 32 kids in the school. The middle and high middle weren't in that class.
My son got 29 college credits for his AP classes. That is one credit shy of a full year. He will be a junior after his first year. All those extra credits will allow him to complete 2 bachelors degrees in 7 semesters. I would say that is a benefit.
One benefit of AP classes is that you get college credit depending on the score on the exam. In some colleges the higher the score, the more credit you get. My one daughter eliminated her entire freshman year plus a couple more classes - you don't think that is worth a lot of money? Additionally, Ivy League and other selective schools care not only that you passed that exam, but by what score.
I think we are having a communication issue here, the English teacher had more 5's than in the previous 4 years combined but she never mentioned whether she had more passes overall. That was NOT middle or high middle kids getting those 5's, it was the top 32 kids in the school. The middle and high middle weren't in that class.
We're not discussing saving parents money. We're discussing whether or not pulling out the top of the class is good for education. Theirs or anyone elses. I don't think it is. I do, however, see the attraction to getting college credit in high school but it should be noted that many of the better schools will not take the credit or will give credit for electives or insist you take the class anyway in spite of the credit earned leaving you paying for and taking the same number of credits in college you would have anyway. It's not always the cost savings parents envision. It's up to the school what they do with the credits if they take them at all. My school offers a ton of AP classes but students are often advised to take the class anyway in college by the college. Some colleges maintain that the AP class is not like taking the college course and students put themselves at a disadvantage if they don't retake the class in college. Others waive for elective meaning you still have to take the credits at the college just not that particular class.
I can see where these classes look good on applications and might help a student make the cut but I don't see where education is being improved by offering them over having the student actually take the college class. I've seen no evidence that students learn more or learn better in AP classes over taking college classes when they get to college. I'm discussing the value WRT education not cost savings or even college applications. I understand why we have these classes, I just don't think they accomplish anything over taking the actual class in college WRT actual learning.
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