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Thank you for the responses. I really appreciate the perspectives and the experiences you have all related.
Being a child of teachers, I understand the necessity for rules, order, zero tolerance, etc. to ensure the safety/best learning environment for all students. As other posters have mentioned, there are also advantages to learning how to play within the rules in order to learn how to properly break them (that is what drew us to public school). But his middle school seems particularly militant and micromanaging about these things. I am wondering if a more flexible environment would be a better fit for him in high school.
He is a happy and ambitious kid now, who gets into minor trouble for breaking rules. I am worried that 6 more years of this environment may not be the best for fostering his strengths, and that it could potentially be detrimental.
He is never mean or belligerent to teachers/students, but he can be distracting which is why some heavily micromanage him. He is not a bully, but his outspokenness, and energy level may come across as irritating/disrespectful to some. He also tends to clown around a lot with his friends - he's actually very funny, sometimes I think he'll be a comic. But we do try to emphasize rules and how to behave appropriately in class.
He is also a very kinetic kid (does not have ADD), constantly moving (e.g. basketball spin moves in the hallway, jumps to touch the top of the ceiling, inadvertently tapping a pencil, etc.) which has gotten him in trouble a lot. I know he often makes these moves without even thinking. His math teacher told me she lets him hold a ball while he does math problems and he said it "helps him to think better." His focus and attention levels are outstanding when doing challenging tasks that motivate him.
His math teacher loves him. One teacher lights up and tells me he's her favorite student (and even gives him special treatment), while the next teacher tells me he is difficult and attention-seeking (and I can tell she's labeled him a troublemaker and it will be a long year). He gets these extreme reactions. I am trying to identify the problems and figure out what the best environment would be for him.
Luckily, our lifestyle allows us flexibility in school choice. In the past, we have done partial homeschooling and private school. We could enroll him in a private high school (in the suburbs or the city), take online classes, etc. He shines when leading/working in-person with peer groups, so I do not think full-day homeschool would be the best fit. I am wondering if we should start looking at private high schools or other creative options for high school.
Yes there is. What really is the problem? The fact your son is ambitious or that he is not popular with everyone?
Most ambitious peoiple are RARELY popular.
No, I never worry about popularity, for myself or my children. But I am worried that the school structure might negatively impact his ambition in the long run. I am not worried about what others think, but rather that their treatment of him might affect his ambition.
Being a leader and following rules aren't mutually exclusive, and following order and structure in order to function in society isn't necessarily being a "blind follower." Having a strong opinion and being able to influence others is great, but remember that the strongest and best leaders are those who also take input and guidance from others, as well.
I don't think it's so much about whether or not a public school, with its rules, structure, and hierarchy,is a good place for a strong-willed individual to be or to learn. Think about what your son will most need to prepare him for a fruitful, independent, successful life once he is an adult. You could remove him from a setting where he is expected to tailor his behavior to comply within certain parameters, if you determine that this stifles his natural leadership ability. But what you'd really be doing is denying him the opportunity to learn a truth about life that's not going to disappear once he's done with school and is an adult, functioning in the world...and that's that heirarchies, order, and structure are a part of most settings that most people participate in, in life. Do you want him to have a difficult time as a professional? I'm sure as a person who admittedly had a hard time working under others, you wouldn't wish your child future workplace difficulties and the struggles that go hand in hand with being unable to work well with others, should it come to that. And that's what could happen if he gets the idea, especially at a tender age, that rules are for other people...people not as smart, strong, creative, individualistic, as him, for instance.
I would be careful of teaching a kid, even inadvertently, that if they are smart, have opinions, are charismatic, etc., they are above having to follow rules. Following rules is just a part of functioning within a society, obviously, whether or not one is self-employed, an entrepreneur, whatever. My dad started his own company, too, and ran it, in part because he didn't enjoy "taking orders" from others. In reality? He gave up having a boss and traded it in for having MANY bosses. Every client or customer he had became his boss. Instead of learning to smartly and reasonably report to one supervisor and hone his interpersonal skills in doing so, he reported to loads of people...different "bosses" for every job, assignment, project, etc. that he undertook. Working "for yourself" doesn't mean the end of having to work well with others. It also doesn't exempt you from having to follow rules - rules of society, laws, procedures that affect everyone. You still are going to have to follow rules. Considering yourself above following rules because you're too smart and independent for that can be a pretty big can of worms, even, if taken to extremes, a dangerous one.
School is a really easy place to learn the basics of purposeful structure and how to play the game. Plenty of smart, independent kids learn how to play the game, and live fruitful, independent lives because of it. It's a lot easier to learn how to work and play well with others at the middle and elementary school level than to have to learn it once an adult, when nobody's interested in giving you lots of opportunities to shape your behavior, they way they are when you are a child.
I agree with much of your post. I understand the necessity of rules, but are the level of rules, structure and micromanagement in our public school an appropriate fit for my child? I'm not sure.
Also, though many high achieving/ambitious people have had workplace difficulties (and I went through that relatively unscathed, even liking the challenge), they often can still work well with other highly competent people. Entrepreneurs still ultimately have freedom to choose the directions they take, and how/when/if they "report" to customers, which is a lot different than working for someone else where you have less freedom.
I also do not put a high priority on my child being able to avoid some future workplace difficulties as that's how one learns and I believe, as "Zthatzman28" posted, "Ambitious people are rarely popular." I am not only looking at school as a place to train a good worker, but more a place for educating a person to become a leader, even if that leader doesn't always get along with everyone.
I am not sure if our present school is the best place for developing these types of leadership traits, especially in boys. This is why I am thinking about other alternatives. I don't think public school is bad, just that our family educational philosophies may be out of synch with our son's current educational environment.
Hi, sounds like my son. All of the above except we tried to have a rules bases structure to keep him within bounds at home and school. It didn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626
OP, that sounds a lot like my son.
Once when I was preoccupied buying shoes for his baby sister I didn't realize that he wasn't still sitting on the chair next to us until I noticed the other parents in the store giving me dirty looks. My four year old son was like a little Pied Piper and had convinced about six other children to play follow the leader with him. He was currently crawling under a row of chairs with the other children all crawling behind him. Their parents were calling to their children to stop but they just kept following my son. It wasn't until I stopped him that the other kids went back to their parents.
Thanks for sharing.... Sounds like you have all had experience with this... Sounds so much like my son... LOL...
Unfortunately, one of the by-products of the systemic de-construction of public education over the last generation is that schools are less likely to find creative ways to channel the energies and gifts of individual students. Your child might have been born too late for public school to be a great fit for him.
Luckily, our lifestyle allows us flexibility in school choice. In the past, we have done partial homeschooling and private school. We could enroll him in a private high school (in the suburbs or the city), take online classes, etc. He shines when leading/working in-person with peer groups, so I do not think full-day homeschool would be the best fit. I am wondering if we should start looking at private high schools or other creative options for high school.
I'm not pushing homeschooling here but asking you to take a second look and maybe read a book about HS teens that shows some of the many possibilities that are open to these kids. The schoolwork needn't take all all day, but the opportunities to get out and work in an internship or starting a small business are all educational and beneficial and would fit him out for adult life much better than some of the lame "Success 101" and personal finance classes I've seen offered in our high school. Of course, if you can, what you're suggesting here sounds great--I just don't see fulltime HS as excluding what you're talking about.
I remember, when I was in 3rd grade. It was winter, and I sold "snow pucks" to all the kids on the playground. There was a certain gum that came in a plastic circle, basically like a tin of chew. I'd fill that will snow and make a "hockey puck" out of it.
Everyone wanted one, I had lines of students every recress just to get their hands on one. They'd pay me in money and also in food and juice boxes.
When my middle daughter was in 1st grade, her teacher said she was the most "unusual" student he'd had in 30 years of teaching. Of course, we took that as a compliment. She is a leader to the point of being bossy, but used her "powers" for good. She created an "Everybody Be Friends" club, sought out the "wallflowers" and didn't let anybody exclude them, is extremely silly and goofy, artistic, and oh yeah, really smart when you sit down and talk to her. Throughout her school years, her teachers were always surprised when they realized how really intelligent she is, because she has such a big, wacky personality. When she was put in the gifted class, it was too much busywork for her, she hated it, and we took her out after one term. We emphasized to her that she was always to be polite and respectful, and she was to follow school and classroom rules, even if she thought they were stupid - which she often did. We would get the calls from time to time that she had broken some rule. When she got home, we'd talk to her about what she had done, why it was a rule, and what she could do to be herself, within the school's guidelines. When she was in high school, there were three suicides her freshman year. She was dealing with the deaths pretty well, but couldn't tolerate the wallowing drama of teenage girls who barely knew the kids. (I know this sounds heartless, but I think you know the kind of girl drama I'm talking about.) My daughter couldn't hang any longer, and we pulled her from school. She did 4 periods of online classes, then went to school after lunch for her Theater class and PE/swim practice. She was able to take her required classes, avoid the drama, and participate in the activities she enjoyed. There's always a way to piece together a school program that fits your own kid, without jamming them into the one size fits all of school. (My other two kids were able to stay in school for the duration, so I'm not just an anti-school parent)
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