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Group learning/projects are vital because guess what, most people end up in jobs where they have to work with other people on group projects, etc. Again, it mirror real life.
The overwhelming majority of people in the workplace are placed on project teams/work groups because they bring a specific level of expertise in a vital area to the group (they are not novice learners). Not only that, project teams/work groups have team leaders and supervisors who have the authority to steer the group so that it does not become bogged down in unproductive diversions. Not to mention the fact that the group/team members are usually mature adults who have the additional incentive of needing to contribute and perform well in their jobs because they have to earn a living to support themselves.
None of those conditions exist in classroom group projects or work groups. Instead, you have a bunch of students thrown together, who know little of the topic.
If schools truly want to mirror real life in their approach to having students work in groups, two things must be done.
1) Fire (expel) the students who do not contribute in a meaningful, equitable way - just as adults are fired from their jobs for similar reasons in real life.
2) Permit students who are unhappy with the educational experience in their school to attend a different school of their choice, just as adults are free to seek employment at another company if they are not satisfied in their current workplace.
Until those conditions are met, the real life argument for group learning/projects is invalid.
Sorry, but I disagree totally. Sports offer unique learning experiences that can't be taught in the classroom. The offer an outlet for kids and there are plenty of kids that only stay in school for the sports otherwise they would have dropped out and that causes a whole new set of problems. Sports and other activities offer the opportunity for well rounded individuals. Most students are well able to handle the demands of the classroom and participate in sports and other extra curricular activities.
So does marching band, and drama. In fact marching band is better because first of all EVERYONE plays and everyone is essential, plus it never needs a coach or director berating someone or making them feel bad about themselves. Explain how wonderful sports are to a kid who gets cut or rides the bench.
As someone who has done both, unless you're a star I can find many more constructive ways of getting the same experiences and not having to constantly feel bad about yourself or how inadequate you are.
If sports funding is to be kept, than equal funding must be given to other programs.
So does marching band, and drama. In fact marching band is better because first of all EVERYONE plays and everyone is essential, plus it never needs a coach or director berating someone or making them feel bad about themselves. Explain how wonderful sports are to a kid who gets cut or rides the bench.
As someone who has done both, unless you're a star I can find many more constructive ways of getting the same experiences and not having to constantly feel bad about yourself or how inadequate you are.
If sports funding is to be kept, than equal funding must be given to other programs.
Well, our marching band has 175 members, state and upper midwest champions, just placed 3rd in the prestigious BOA Super-Regional in St. Louis. Just won the Youth in Music Upper Mid-West Championship--where our football team attended to support them because the band plays at all their home games. Our fine arts program is VERY well funded and supported. We have 3 full-time band directors for our school. It is a fabulous school. Our principal and one assistant principal just donated $100 each, personal money, to help the band kids shave the head of one of the directors--that was a bet he made with the kids if they won the state championship again. Our national merit semi-finalists are all in the marching band AND sports. Our marching band is audition only, there are kids that get cut from the band too.
The overwhelming majority of people in the workplace are placed on project teams/work groups because they bring a specific level of expertise in a vital area to the group (they are not novice learners). Not only that, project teams/work groups have team leaders and supervisors who have the authority to steer the group so that it does not become bogged down in unproductive diversions. Not to mention the fact that the group/team members are usually mature adults who have the additional incentive of needing to contribute and perform well in their jobs because they have to earn a living to support themselves.
None of those conditions exist in classroom group projects or work groups. Instead, you have a bunch of students thrown together, who know little of the topic.
If schools truly want to mirror real life in their approach to having students work in groups, two things must be done.
1) Fire (expel) the students who do not contribute in a meaningful, equitable way - just as adults are fired from their jobs for similar reasons in real life.
2) Permit students who are unhappy with the educational experience in their school to attend a different school of their choice, just as adults are free to seek employment at another company if they are not satisfied in their current workplace.
Until those conditions are met, the real life argument for group learning/projects is invalid.
Most teachers do "fire" students that don't pull their weight on group assignments by giving them a lower grade. Since they can't expel students very easily it is about the only recourse they have--not unlike the working world where you have to have significant documentation to fire someone.
In MN we do have statewide open enrollment so a student CAN go to any school they choose.
As for leaders in group projects in the working environment--sorry, no different then the leaders that direct a project in a classroom. Most teams have a student that fulfils the leadership roll and then the TEACHER acts as the overall manager/supervisor of the program. No different then in the real world where a manager assigns a project to a group of workers and lets them get the work done but being available for assistance as needed.
Most teachers do "fire" students that don't pull their weight on group assignments by giving them a lower grade. Since they can't expel students very easily it is about the only recourse they have--not unlike the working world where you have to have significant documentation to fire someone.
In MN we do have statewide open enrollment so a student CAN go to any school they choose.
As for leaders in group projects in the working environment--sorry, no different then the leaders that direct a project in a classroom. Most teams have a student that fulfils the leadership roll and then the TEACHER acts as the overall manager/supervisor of the program. No different then in the real world where a manager assigns a project to a group of workers and lets them get the work done but being available for assistance as needed.
That is not what happens in any school I have ever seen in the five different states in which I have lived, and the seven others in which I have family (everyone has vented frustrations with and complaints about group work/projects in the schools).
I have seen many examples of teachers giving group grades for group exams and group finals which were worth large percentages of the students' semester grades.
Ocasionally, teachers ask students to rate their group peers and base a portion of the students' grades on their peers' evaluation. I have personally seen this system abused badly by students manipulating the group work and grading system with teachers who were essentially clueless as to what was going on.
But, the students know. The conscientious students cynically refer to this method as 'slacking in groups' (instead of 'working in groups') and legalized cheating.
Maybe others could share their experience with this.
And, the vast majority of students in our country do not have the benefit of open erollment that you have in Minnesota. Most students are stuck in their local public school. Parents have very little to no say in the educational philosophy and methods used in the schools.
Group learning/projects are vital because guess what, most people end up in jobs where they have to work with other people on group projects, etc. Again, it mirror real life.
Around here academic achievement IS recognized and honored as much, if not more than the athletic achievements. Ability grouping DOES happen, they just don't TELL people they are doing it. Ask the students, they all know it exists. They know who is in what track by the teachers the kids have. It isn't hard to figure out.
I guess we are just lucky that school is important here and that getting a good education is important to the majority of the families here. Because of the good base kids come into school with around here they are a step ahead of the rest of the country which offers them the luxury of being able to spread their wings. If you look at the top students in the classes around here, all the awards on their letter jackets you will see that yes, they are top students but they are also top athletes, active in various academic teams, active in the music programs, etc. Our school awards letters for academic achievement, the math team, SADD, Band, etc. The number one student in the graduating class last year was a 2 sport all-conference/all-region athlete, soloist in the state champion marching band, all-state band member, all-state choir member, editor of the student newspaper, National Honor Society president, and a member of the nationally ranked Knowledge Bowl team that placed 13th in the nation last year. These are the kinds of students we have in our schools.
Hi Golfgal, it's me again. That is truly awesome. I am sending a kurtsy for your top students. I would never try to take that away from them. I'm serious. Will you carry a kurtsy to every one of them. When you come back I want to know how many times you kurtsied. Ok? That is just wonderful!! It would be really neat to hear some of their comments or opinions on this issue about their other friends who are not talented in those ways. Thank you for time and comments, you keep it very interesting. Write again. LIVE LAUGH AND LOVE
So does marching band, and drama. In fact marching band is better because first of all EVERYONE plays and everyone is essential, plus it never needs a coach or director berating someone or making them feel bad about themselves. Explain how wonderful sports are to a kid who gets cut or rides the bench.
Take some time to look around at some other schools, marching band is super competitive and kids do get cut. Have you met any band directors? Not that anyone will ever say that they are berating someone or making them feel bad, they are certainly very rigid and structured people who run a tight ship. Those kids are practicing way more than the sports teams, I remember summer days when the band kids are out in the 100 degree weather ALL DAY. Being in the marching band is certainly not a walk in the park. There are lots and lots of coaches that do not berate their players, you can not make that blanket statement. Also, not everyone is essential, have you met the kid who plays the cymbol!
Being cut from a sports team or riding the bench is life. No one is going to be good at everything and kids need to learn those lessons. I have told this story before here but I had a kid that came from a small private school where he was captain of the baseball team, he came to our 3500 student public school and did not even make the team. He was devastated but it was a lesson to be learned, he pursued other interests, joined a jazz band, worked at his art and learned what his TRUE skills were, those TRUE skills got him into college.
I hate programs where everyone gets to play, and everyone is equal and everyone makes the team, it is not real life.
Sports programs for certain sports are run through outside organizations in the school system where I teach. Parents pay, the kids play. This does provide some separation, I will grant that. The kids still wear their jerseys on game days, etc. I do like that the tax dollars, the few there are, go to the classrooms.
However, my school system cannot 'bench' a student who is under performing academically since these sports programs are not affiliated with the school. I can imagine some of you may disagree with this but consider if it were your student who was under performing.
Would you want a teacher sharing confidential information (grades, behavior) with someone who is not a school employee?
It'd be great if the parents took the initiative and benched their own kids when they bombed a test or did poorly in a class but as an educator I have to work with the realities not the 'what if' situations.
Thank you muffinman. How many years has it been this way for your school? I was wondering how the kids respond to this program? Are they happy with it? Do you feel like they are getting a better EDUCATION with the sports as a luxury? I could not agree with you more about the parents taking some responibility for their childrens EDUCATION coming first. Now I have heard on the news, that they might start offering $1,000.00 dollars to graduate. What is your opinion on this one? I appreciate any ideas, opinions or information you might be able to give me. Thanks again. LIVE LAUGH & LOVE
Well, our marching band has 175 members, state and upper midwest champions, just placed 3rd in the prestigious BOA Super-Regional in St. Louis. Just won the Youth in Music Upper Mid-West Championship--where our football team attended to support them because the band plays at all their home games. Our fine arts program is VERY well funded and supported. We have 3 full-time band directors for our school. It is a fabulous school. Our principal and one assistant principal just donated $100 each, personal money, to help the band kids shave the head of one of the directors--that was a bet he made with the kids if they won the state championship again. Our national merit semi-finalists are all in the marching band AND sports. Our marching band is audition only, there are kids that get cut from the band too.
Well thats a very miraculous situation, and an exception to the rule. If you look around most schools get little or no funding for the arts and those teachers are forced to fight tooth and nail for even a little bit of funding.
I doubt they are completely cut out of the program. I'm sure that even if they aren't in the marching band they are still in another group in order to develop as a player.
175 kids...... I don't know of any two or three sports teams that have that many members working together, at the same time. Lots of teamwork there, lots to learn too bad most other schools and the country couldn't pick up a little more on that.
Take some time to look around at some other schools, marching band is super competitive and kids do get cut. Have you met any band directors? Not that anyone will ever say that they are berating someone or making them feel bad, they are certainly very rigid and structured people who run a tight ship. Those kids are practicing way more than the sports teams, I remember summer days when the band kids are out in the 100 degree weather ALL DAY. Being in the marching band is certainly not a walk in the park. There are lots and lots of coaches that do not berate their players, you can not make that blanket statement. Also, not everyone is essential, have you met the kid who plays the cymbol!
Being cut from a sports team or riding the bench is life. No one is going to be good at everything and kids need to learn those lessons. I have told this story before here but I had a kid that came from a small private school where he was captain of the baseball team, he came to our 3500 student public school and did not even make the team. He was devastated but it was a lesson to be learned, he pursued other interests, joined a jazz band, worked at his art and learned what his TRUE skills were, those TRUE skills got him into college.
I hate programs where everyone gets to play, and everyone is equal and everyone makes the team, it is not real life.
I was a band director and have seen hundreds of programs, most are all students participating if they can make the commitment, and most directors I have known (again hundreds) end up taking the back seat to athletic programs. Some are strict and berating, but most are more encouraging than anything.
I have known plenty of kids that play the cymbals and they're all essential. Have you ever watched a halftime show? Ever noticed when a kid is sick or absent? There's a giant hole. No their part may not be the most difficult but they all have a purpose and a job.
Yeah best to let programs be survival of the fittest thats wonderful. Lets tell kids they're probably not gonna be good at a lot of things so they don't even try and waste the time of the truly talented kids. I mean lets face it, the odds are that they aren't gonna amount to much anyways and gonna just have some tiny cookie cutter house and be constantly struggling to pay the bills. Stop coddling them lets just tell them life is tough, too bad you're not gonna amount to anything.
Or, maybe we could encourage them. Maybe we could let kids find some things to do that make them happy before they enter the rat race that is the American workforce. Let them do some things that let them look back and take pride on what they did. For some, that might be the best they get. I've seen some kids with some serious learning disabilities and getting to participate (even if its just playing the cymbals) was important and was a big deal.
Every kid has the ability to be successful and should get that opportunity at least a few times before adulthood. Shouldn't they? I don't like those competitive programs which only discourage kids by keeping them out. All the kids learn from that is how to hate the program, the director or coach, or even the game itself.
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Awesome!!!
I'm serious. Will you carry a kurtsy to every one of them. When you come back I want to know how many times you kurtsied. Ok? That is just wonderful!! It would be really neat to hear some of their comments or opinions on this issue about their other friends who are not talented in those ways. Thank you for time and comments, you keep it very interesting. Write again. LIVE LAUGH AND LOVE
Looking for EDUCATION first
