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Generally I am for some type of hybrid gatekeeping. Like an automatic grade or test score cutoff, but an alternative case by case petition process for those who don't meet the cutofff so you can catch those exceptions to the rule.
I do think AP classes should be mainly reserved for the most prepared students.
The AP courses were pretty much open as long as you hit the pre-reqs .... some kids even took them independent study .... the AP courses were math/science and really only available when you had the other courses out of the way .... there was no mandate or need to take an AP class to graduate - if you couldn't keep up you would drop and take something else or simply fail
Same setup with the college courses, although they were typically in social sciences, language arts, etc ....... for the english class I had to interview with the instructor as I did not go through her "advanced English" course as a Junior and needed a recommendation from my English teacher ........ this teacher was horrible - only 5 of us from outside her bubble ended up enrolling and only 2 of us finished
The other ones were a little more open and frequently had better enrollment than the science/math classes as they weren't considered to be as difficult and didn't have a gatekeeper like the language arts classes ...... one of them was pretty easy, that was the Government class .......... The Micro/Macro Econ classes were a lot more stingent though and the teacher would challenge us - a lot of kids ended up dropping and it was contentious for a while early, but honestly that class did the best job at preparing us for a typical college class and it was really the only time in HS I had to work like I ended up working when I was in college - I think it was a great experience and provided a nice wakeup call to many of us
In our school, most students' schedules are prepared by the counselors. Neither the students nor their parents are very involved at all. There has been a huge push to enroll AP students, even those who have not yet passed all their state-mandated graduation tests. The district doesn't want to fund sections with fewer than 15 students, but they need to offer AP classes to achieve some rating under the school evaluation rubric. As a result, the majority of the students in our AP classes are barely able to keep up and the instructor keeps having to slow down for them. I don't know if we have ever had a student earn a qualifying score on any exam.
The standards keep on dropping. This year our district has changed the grading system to put 70% on classwork, homework, and quizzes, with only 30% of the weight on test averages. Then when the report cards came out, we learned that they had also made any grade below 50 default to 50. So a student can literally get a 50 without ever setting foot in a classroom or doing any assignments. I keep waiting for the next pull-back on academic standards.
So if a kid in your school gets a D in pre-calc they are allowed to sign up for AP Calc? And which AP Calc are they signing up for?
Oh, and it is interesting how out of touch people are when it comes to scheduling. The vast majority of problems don't come from "slackers" it comes from average or even slightly above average students whose parents are convinced they can succeed in AP because they do not understand the difference in the workload. Juniors and seniors in every school I have worked in, do not pick their schedules in a vacuum. Their parents are the ones pushing for them to get into classes. Frequently pushing for them to get into AP classes they do not qualify for, and then freaking out when they are failing those AP classes the first marking period.
Probably. Generally kids who get Ds in pre-calc aren't singing up for AP Calc (AB or BC) so it's a moot point anyway.
And that is interesting. Most of the parents I know complain about the number of AP classes their kids are in, LOL...
Kids don't pick their schedules in most schools, their parents do. Parents who see a B- in physics, see a kid who is clearly ready for AP Physics. Teachers see a B- in physics and want to know if that was a B- due to bumps from homework, extra credit, labs etc. but really a C average on tests. That is not a student who will succeed in AP. Now a B-, as a test average, might pass AP physics. This is why teachers (not parents) should be able to sign kids into these course.
Really? What AP courses have you taught? I teach two college level classes, and I have taught AP. I can tell you that the vast majority of kids who have not met the criteria but been "allowed" in, have struggled and instead felt badly about themselves at a time when being successful is crucial for college readiness.
And which AP classes have you taught that makes you an expert on AP curricula and the strengths students need to succeed in them?
I do not know who is more annoying, parents who think their little kids are angels and geniuses, or teachers who view the enitirety of education through their very narrow experience of classroom teaching. It's toss-up. I don't have to be an AP teacher to see a system that routinely underestimates students, often black and Latino ones. I have seen vthat happen very clearly in more than one school. I've helped to start three and talked to many parents, teachers, administrators, and STUDENTS in the process. Over the years it's painfully obvious how motivated students are mislabeled, condescended to, and dismissed. Often by teachers, guidance counselors, and assistant principals with the same sneering, condescending attitude you demonstrate.
There is a much broader view than a classroom teacher gets. Even on an anonymous Internet forum you can listen (or read) and learn. Try it sometimes. You might be surprised.
Last edited by citylove101; 12-02-2013 at 05:21 PM..
I'm in favor of little gatekeeping combined with rigorous standards.
This is seen in the increasingly popular online courses that anyone can register in but in some courses
it's mercilessly sink or swim I had fun taking a couple of math classes in University that I wasn't technically prepared for but that I managed to do very well in. I also did that for a few language classes (skipped from level 2 to to level 5).
AP and real college course go at a much faster pace, and involve more information. What happens when you let anyone take the class and now 4/5 of the students are failing because they cannot deal with the pace and work load?
You don't get 4/5ths of students failing because they are not capable. You get 4/5s failing because they lack the foundation skills and education to take the course. Neither of those can be determined by GPA and test scores.
As I said above, no high school course, including AP courses, are so difficult as to require ability based limitations. Your typical college graduate should breeze through most AP courses and pass all; but nearly all 4th graders would struggle in any AP course. That is a function of knowledge and skill, not ability and capability.
At our high school, the kids pick their courses with the assistance of their academic advisor. The school will not recommend a student take an AP course they are not ready for. Readiness is determined in part by past performance and teacher recommendation. I think this is only fair because you have kids who have worked hard and are ready to blaze forward through material, along with teachers prepared to move quickly. The idea is to not have students in the class who will slow the whole process down. Even with this criteria, students still drop these classes when they see the reality of the work load. My daughter (junior) could not believe how many of her very capable classmates dropped AP Latin this year.
I understand not wanting to deny someone an opportunity for advanced learning, but allowing anyone in who wants to sign up for AP seems like it could waste a lot of valuable time waiting for those who can't keep up to drop out. That is not fair to the students who are prepared to be there.
I understand not wanting to deny someone an opportunity for advanced learning, but allowing anyone in who wants to sign up for AP seems like it could waste a lot of valuable time waiting for those who can't keep up to drop out. That is not fair to the students who are prepared to be there.
There is a big difference between allowing anyone who wants versus applying a strict GPA or test score cutoff.
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I had fun taking a couple of math classes in University that I wasn't technically prepared for but that I managed to do very well in. I also did that for a few language classes (skipped from level 2 to to level 5).
