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You could just as easily say that some people want open access so that they can make their kids look special. I don't think parental bragging rights should come into play when deciding who the target audience of advanced classes is.
I really don't see that in this discussion.
I don't understand why it would controversial to say that advanced academic classes should be for advanced students. Reasonable people can differ as to how to decide on a way to define advanced students but why would advanced academic classes be for all students? In what world does that make sense?
Maybe it's different at your kids' school, but when my kids were in HS it was "Suzy is taking four AP classes; she's going to have so much college credit she'll be able to start as a junior", and so forth. I've been on the periphery of many discussions of who should be allowed to take these special classes. Some parents really want their kids to look like standouts. Also, at my kids' school AP classes (and a few others) were "weighted", e.g. you got an extra quality point for an A, B, or C, and the competition for the highest GPA was very intense. I should note they have now gone to an honors group as someone finally recognized that a 0.01 difference in GPA didn't mean much.
I'll try to track down the yields and raw scores for the AP tests. I know they are published online. The yields are pretty consistent year in/year out except when there are major test changes; but the raw scores vary wildly from year to year.
A high school senior who gets an "A" in AP English should get more than a "2" on the AP test. I wasn't talking about about AP Music Comp or AP Geography.
Sorry, I missed that you were talking specifically about AP English.
How does that remotely refute the reality that if you remove requisites, than more kids will fail? Are you claiming that AP would just make the passing grade lower? And do you really think that that is a good thing?
Yes, that is exactly what they do now on AP Geography (making the passing grade lower), and I don't think it is a good thing.
Flip to page 10 for the raw scores for the essays. These essays are scored on a two scorer composite, with a minimum score of 1 if you even attempt the essay on topic, no matter how bad the essay, and a max of 12. Q2 was a partial question, which gives a max of 9, with each scorer scoring on a 1 to 5 scale.
The first standard deviation was below 2 on the second and third questions. To get below a 2, you have to not even attempt to answer the question on topic. The students were at least completing the multiple choice, but still were answering only 56% of the questions correctly (and this was back when the AP still had a guessing penalty too).
Maybe it's different at your kids' school, but when my kids were in HS it was "Suzy is taking four AP classes; she's going to have so much college credit she'll be able to start as a junior", and so forth. I've been on the periphery of many discussions of who should be allowed to take these special classes.
That may be an effect of having AP classes but that isn't what schools should consider when deciding who should take AP classes. Advanced classes should be for advanced students. Is that really controversial?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Some parents really want their kids to look like standouts. Also, at my kids' school AP classes (and a few others) were "weighted", e.g. you got an extra quality point for an A, B, or C, and the competition for the highest GPA was very intense. I should note they have now gone to an honors group as someone finally recognized that a 0.01 difference in GPA didn't mean much.
Why wouldn't you want your child to standout when they are applying to very competitive colleges? I want mine to stand out. I want them to get in where they want to go and I want them to get scholarships. In order to do those things they need to stand out. Why is this bad?
That may be an effect of having AP classes but that isn't what schools should consider when deciding who should take AP classes. Advanced classes should be for advanced students. Is that really controversial?
Of course it is very controversial!!
An advanced class includes advanced curriculum, right? I know, at least that much.
Why is it that only students who have been identified as "advanced" based on PAST performance or some IQ-type tests should be allowed access to such courses?
How about later-bloomers? How about those who may not have studied as intensely in the past but have now caught up? How about those who may not be "stars" but are very hard workers and are willing to tackle the challenge?
Who are you to put a label on a student early on and then have his entire life affected by that early label?
How about students can take whatever they want - and at the end they get tested for performance in the course? If the student did not do well enough, fail him. It's that simple.
They don't need an "advanced" label on their foreheads to take an advanced course.
This is, in fact, not controversial - it is highly immoral.
That may be an effect of having AP classes but that isn't what schools should consider when deciding who should take AP classes. Advanced classes should be for advanced students. Is that really controversial?
Why wouldn't you want your child to standout when they are applying to very competitive colleges? I want mine to stand out. I want them to get in where they want to go and I want them to get scholarships. In order to do those things they need to stand out. Why is this bad?
"Standout" may have been the wrong word, but the point is some parents want their kids to be part of some exclusive little group. I've seen this in sports too, but I digress. I agree with the bold, below.
My kids are way beyond college selection/acceptance, but frankly, I think this constant focusing on coming up with some gimmick to get students to stand out is ridiculous. Unless your kid is applying to a very small, very selective college, most of the decision is based on grades and test scores. Many colleges do look at courses taken as well as the grades, so why not give everyone a chance to take these advanced classes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa
Of course it is very controversial!!
An advanced class includes advanced curriculum, right? I know, at least that much.
Why is it that only students who have been identified as "advanced" based on PAST performance or some IQ-type tests should be allowed access to such courses?
How about later-bloomers? How about those who may not have studied as intensely in the past but have now caught up? How about those who may not be "stars" but are very hard workers and are willing to tackle the challenge?
Who are you to put a label on a student early on and then have his entire life affected by that early label?
How about students can take whatever they want - and at the end they get tested for performance in the course? If the student did not do well enough, fail him. It's that simple.
They don't need an "advanced" label on their foreheads to take an advanced course.
This is, in fact, not controversial - it is highly immoral.
An advanced class includes advanced curriculum, right? I know, at least that much.
Why is it that only students who have been identified as "advanced" based on PAST performance or some IQ-type tests should be allowed access to such courses?
How about later-bloomers? How about those who may not have studied as intensely in the past but have now caught up? How about those who may not be "stars" but are very hard workers and are willing to tackle the challenge?
Who are you to put a label on a student early on and then have his entire life affected by that early label?
How about students can take whatever they want - and at the end they get tested for performance in the course? If the student did not do well enough, fail him. It's that simple.
They don't need an "advanced" label on their foreheads to take an advanced course.
This is, in fact, not controversial - it is highly immoral.
But their grades would reflect that already before they signed up for an AP class.
Are you saying that the above bolded would happen in the AP class itself ?
I don't think students that have a history of failure, remedial classes and summer school should take AP classes in that subject.
The schools where I'm in they pull those students into remedial classes right at the start of the school year to help them to keep up.
I'll try to track down the yields and raw scores for the AP tests. I know they are published online. The yields are pretty consistent year in/year out except when there are major test changes; but the raw scores vary wildly from year to year.
I am most familiar with AP Chem, Physics and Bio. And it is a rare year where 65% of the kids pass the AP Physics test. Especially the C.
An advanced class includes advanced curriculum, right? I know, at least that much.
Why is it that only students who have been identified as "advanced" based on PAST performance or some IQ-type tests should be allowed access to such courses?
How about later-bloomers? How about those who may not have studied as intensely in the past but have now caught up? How about those who may not be "stars" but are very hard workers and are willing to tackle the challenge?
Who are you to put a label on a student early on and then have his entire life affected by that early label?
How about students can take whatever they want - and at the end they get tested for performance in the course? If the student did not do well enough, fail him. It's that simple.
They don't need an "advanced" label on their foreheads to take an advanced course.
This is, in fact, not controversial - it is highly immoral.
IQ does not change widely over the course of ones life time so there are no "late bloomers" that would take a student from below average to above.
AP classes are not a right in public schools. There are limited resources. This is a fact. And if a student does not qualify to take the class, they are taking those resources away from someone who does.
If it were the other end of the spectrum no one would be making all these posts with so many !!! Suppose your child is learning disabled in some way, and the school assigns them some sort of full time aide. And another students parent says, "But what if my child suddenly goes from being average to below, why shouldn't he have all that extra help!! It is immoral for one child to get help!! My child would benefit too!!"
And so on.
And yes, when non-advanced students take non advanced courses it slows the entire class down. This is also FACT. I have taught AP classes. I have had kids in the class who begged and pleaded to have pre-reqs waived. Then those kids proceeded to make a class that was moving at a speed to cover all of the material, and in which all of the advanced kids were doing fine, and they stop and need something explained multiple times. In many sciences, it is typically to assign problems from the book and have the kids self check their answers. Then any that they need help with, we do on the board. In an advanced class like AP, that population only needs help with a few of the difficult problems and we can move on to the next topic. The non-advanced kids in my AP classes have literally had to do every single homework problem on the board and they still didn't "get it". Meanwhile the kids who had a chance to actually do very well on the AP exam, now don't get to have all of the content delivered because the teacher has to stop moving forward. What do you suggest we do?
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