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Just out of curiosity, what math do the other 40 8th graders take? What content do they cover?
I'm in an inner-city school where a lot of the students do go on to college, no matter how ill-prepared they are. We do not currently teach AP Calculus because we have no teacher, although there is a strong group of honors students who do better than expected given their environment. Students must pass Algebra I to graduate, and many never do, even after 10+ retests with nearly constant test prep. It really must be seen to be understood. Our school board finally decided to remove Algebra II as a graduation requirement for a regular diploma because it was hurting our graduation rate.
I understand that most districts in the country are doing just fine, all the children are above average, and Algebra II is neither arcane nor particularly demanding, as I live in a town long known for its academic focus where we currently have Star Schools. But where children are not above average, they are often extremely below average, and many will never be able to get past Algebra I, much less Geometry.
Do we really want to deny these students the opportunity to earn a diploma because they can't calculate conic sections and logarithms? I know that things have changed since I was in school, but those are two topics I remember from Algebra II. Many of these students have trouble just reducing rational expressions, which my children were taught in sixth grade.
What should be the minimum standard in math for a general education diploma, so that young people can graduate and get a decent job? Who is condemned to a GED at best or no diploma at all?
The standard should still be Algebra II...what needs to change is everything leading UP to Algebra II starting WAY before the kids even enter kindergarten.
Yes, I know all of this...that wasn't the point of the conversation though...you said that it was that it wasn't taught well in the high schools and I disagreed with that. Sure, if you want to compare inner city kids and their attained level in math to kids that go to college from top suburban schools or private schools, I suppose your point is valid, however you and I both know, most of the kids from inner city schools are not going to college.
As for the exception vs the rule, all of the kids I know that were going to college with a math based career in mind took MV Calc in high school or through DE credits...I would say it's not the exception but no, most college bound kids have no need to take MV Calc in high school or in college.
While it is true that many kids in inner city schools do not go to college, there is a percentage that does. My honors math kids in inner city Chicago actually did better than kids from many suburban districts. The problem is that you are generalizing from a few good schools to the whole and most schools even the suburban schools don't do well teaching calculus.
We cannot get the statistics on this because it is too varied, but from what I hear from the college profs, very few think that the AP calculus classes in high school are the equivalent of college calculus.
The standard should still be Algebra II...what needs to change is everything leading UP to Algebra II starting WAY before the kids even enter kindergarten.
Developmentally, kids are not ready for abstract math in kindergarten. There are things they should learn, but seriously, we need to stop thinking that preschoolers and kindergarteners need to learn abstract math.
Developmentally, kids are not ready for abstract math in kindergarten. There are things they should learn, but seriously, we need to stop thinking that preschoolers and kindergarteners need to learn abstract math.
Never said they were, but the should be read to as infants, taught simple counting, colors, etc. to prepare them for kindergarten. They should be sent to school fed and ready to learn. They should be expected to do as well as they can in school from day one. THAT is what needs to change. Never said they need to do algebra in kindergarten...
It isn't a big deal, but many sheeple will see it as a call to arms.
The cold hard reality of the situation is that the overwhelming majority of jobs that need to be done in our country do not require the employees to solve algebraic equations. Most of the jobs that need to be done are retail service jobs and blue collar jobs. Also, our colleges and universities are producing a large excess of college graduates relative to the number of college-education-requiring jobs available. In other words, our nation is not suffering from a shortage of people who have passed Algebra II. Those students who have a need to study Algebra II can do it on their own initiative.
The "global competition" is beating us in the area of wages, labor and environmental regulations, and health benefits costs. It has little to do with education and productive ability.
Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 02-07-2014 at 04:55 AM..
The standard should still be Algebra II...what needs to change is everything leading UP to Algebra II starting WAY before the kids even enter kindergarten.
What percentage of all real world jobs that need to be done require an understanding or make any practical use of a knowledge of Algebra 2?
Waitresses? No.
Bartenders? No.
Janitors? No.
Auto mechanics? No.
Construction workers? No.
Call center customer service reps? No.
Truck drivers? No.
Retail cashiers? No.
Data entry? No.
Secretary? No.
The vast majority of Pink Collar jobs? No.
Human resources? No.
The vast majority of management jobs? No.
The overwhelming majority of real-world jobs make no use of it. So why is it that important for all high school graduates to have it? Why not focus on skills people will actually need and use?
What percentage of all real world jobs that need to be done require an understanding or make any practical use of a knowledge of Algebra 2?
Waitresses? No.
Bartenders? No.
Janitors? No.
Auto mechanics? No.
Construction workers? No.
Call center customer service reps? No.
Truck drivers? No.
Retail cashiers? No.
Data entry? No.
Secretary? No.
The vast majority of Pink Collar jobs? No.
Human resources? No.
The vast majority of management jobs? No.
The overwhelming majority of real-world jobs make no use of it. So why is it that important for all high school graduates to have it? Why not focus on skills people will actually need and use?
I think high schools need to focus on classes that teach skills to students by 11th or 12th grade. Possibly having a lot of vocational classes for students who want to do something in a field like auto mechanic, etc.
Unless someone is going to college to do something math heavy, I think alternative math classes for those who want something else other than Algebra II in 11th grade would be helpful. I know golfgal keeps on bringing the what-if card up if some of students who go through this route want to attend college or the so called global competition card up, but those jobs you posted aren't moving overseas. If a high school student is thinking about going to college for a job in an area that requires a lot of math, absolutely he or she should take algebra 2, pre calculus, etc.
I took algebra 2 in my junior year of high school back in 1998. Have I used any of the concepts I learned way back when in any of the jobs I've done? No. Am I a more well rounded person because of taking algebra 2? No, because I don't remember majority of the material and haven't used it since. **This is my answer, but I suspect majority of people will agree they never used any algebra 2 concepts once they graduated and moved on unless they did something heavy in math.**
Back to the global competition concept, even if you get a degree in something that is math heavy, say an engineering degree, and get a job as an engineer, your job can easily be sent overseas. You know why? It's because the company you work for doesn't give two craps about you and cares more about saving money than anything else.
Good for them, I know that FL just got rid of the mandate as well. Algebra II is mostly useless, when are you going to use an equation like f(x)=x^2+2x-4 or matrices during your lifetime? Of course there are occupations that use them, but most people don't go into these kinds of occupations.
I'm an electrician and I don't use any algebra II stuff. My cousin almost didn't graduate three years ago because he was struggling in algebra II even though he was doing fine in his other classes. My mother is a school teacher and she doesn't even use algebra II stuff herself nor has she since she was in college twenty years ago. People got fine all along with Algebra II requirements in the past, why is it all of a sudden a necessity?
Schools need to be teaching more useful and practical things like financial education, where you learn how to make a budget, balance a checkbook, stay out of debt, handle money, file taxes, save up money and retirement, buy a house and learn about the different ways to pay a mortgage and car payment, etc. These are all things that close to everyone uses during their lifetime yet it's not mandatory for graduation, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Schools also need to stop with this mindset that everyone must go to college and become the world's next famous scientist or something. The majority of people who go to college as freshmen drop out before the end of their four years and only a third of the population even has a college degree. The common core standards crap is another thing trying to force higher level math, "college readiness" and the mentality that everyone must go to college.
I also don't understand this "global competition" thing. It's just a job market, not some stupid wrestling match. People who use the term global competition make it sound like they want everyone to be stuck-up workaholics with a dog eat dog mentality who center their life around work, in order to "compete" in the "global economy".
Last edited by LookingtoleaveFL; 02-07-2014 at 09:15 AM..
I think high schools need to focus on classes that teach skills to students by 11th or 12th grade. Possibly having a lot of vocational classes for students who want to do something in a field like auto mechanic, etc.
IMHO, we need to redesign how we do education in this country. The notion that everyone should go to college is destructive and ridiculous. It would make more sense to train people in a 1:1 ratio of people trained in a field to jobs in a field.
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