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I have heard Cogat being referred to as an "ability" test, or more precisely "group ability" test. It was also specified that this is not an intelligence test like WAIS.
If Cogat does not measure innate ability but neither does it measure achievement, obviously - what is the precise difference between a test like cogat and one like WAIS ?
You might look at the difference as one determining if someone can figure out an answer compared to determining if one just knows the answer easily.
Reasoning skills and intelligence do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Hmmm...very fine discrimination. Interesting.
I would have never thought of it that way. Reasoning ability must certainly be part of intelligence, no?
Or is it that someone can show you how to reason through a certain type of problem and once you learn that type of problem you can do it too - but you didn't do the original reasoning yourself?
Is this what Cogat measures? And if yes, doesn't that make it a sort of achievement test?
Also, in the intelligence test, how can you make sure that any reasoning involved is originally and exclusively the test taker's?
I am just trying to understand the difference.
As someone who grew up in a culture where there was virtually no emphasis on "innate/genetic ability" and nobody was EVER given any sort of test other than pure achievement tests - I never cease to be amazed at how much the educational system in this country is tied to pure genetics.
Spencer, Nietzsche and even Hitler would be proud.
For a culture that idolizes individual agency and hard work so much, it is creepy how much attention is being paid to something the individuals have zero control over.
Charles Murray clearly hit the nail in "Coming Apart" when he said that our society is in the process of becoming a cognitive aristocracy where Ms. Harvard and Mr. Yale, having met in those blessed places, screw to produce little geniuses ... while everyone else is being left to breed in increasingly unimpressive IQ pools.
Holy cow...and I had always thought a solid curriculum and lots of effort will do the trick for most people - because it worked for both myself and my husband, none of whom are geniuses.
Just average intelligence and good enough to be able ti finish grad school with the aid of a top notch curriculum, perseverance, hard work and high expectations from my school and my home.
I have always disliked math but I was taught to do it well - and well I did it.
Now I've come to second guess our families' gene pools.
After all, who knows what kind of unfortunate gene our kids may have picked from us or our extended families? We have a few duds scattered here and there in the tree.
No curriculum or level of hard work will help that, right?
At least this is what I learned from years of reading about education in America.
Hmmm...very fine discrimination. Interesting.
I would have never thought of it that way. Reasoning ability must certainly be part of intelligence, no?
Or is it that someone can show you how to reason through a certain type of problem and once you learn that type of problem you can do it too - but you didn't do the original reasoning yourself?
Is this what Cogat measures? And if yes, doesn't that make it a sort of achievement test?
Also, in the intelligence test, how can you make sure that any reasoning involved is originally and exclusively the test taker's?
It doesn't have to be complicated. Think of some every day tasks, for instance, say loading the dishwasher for maximum effectiveness.
Did someone else teach you how to load a dishwasher? Did you learn from the instruction manual? Did you learn from trial and error? Did you look at it and just do it without thinking? Do you struggle with it every time?
Does your husband load it? How about your friends or family? Do they do things differently than you?
Now, consider it this way:
A - Some just never get the hang of loading a dishwasher without guidance. Constant reminders are needed for it to get done well enough to get the dishes clean.
B - Some have to continually switch things around to get them to fit. They don't see how it should work without moving things around.
C - Some follow the instructions well and get it done easily without more instruction.
D - Some look at it, see what needs to be done and does it. No questions, no instructions needed, no issues.
A doesn't learn well with reasoning and doesn't have the intelligence to get the job done right without supervision.
B has the intelligence to get it done, but not without repeatedly moving things to get the desired result, so there is not much reasoning capability there.
C is able to easily use reasoning to accomplish the task once they understood the goal, but didn't have the intelligence to figure it out on their own.
D had the intelligence to see the reasoning it takes to do so easily and efficiently. No one had to tell them and they didn't have to do it over to get it right.
This can be applied to many things in life. Some have the level of intelligence to see the reasoning needed, others can be taught how to reason, others have the ability to know what to do just not how to do it and some just have to be shown every single time.
It doesn't have to be complicated. Think of some every day tasks, for instance, say loading the dishwasher for maximum effectiveness.
Did someone else teach you how to load a dishwasher? Did you learn from the instruction manual? Did you learn from trial and error? Did you look at it and just do it without thinking? Do you struggle with it every time?
Does your husband load it? How about your friends or family? Do they do things differently than you?
Now, consider it this way:
A - Some just never get the hang of loading a dishwasher without guidance. Constant reminders are needed for it to get done well enough to get the dishes clean.
B - Some have to continually switch things around to get them to fit. They don't see how it should work without moving things around.
C - Some follow the instructions well and get it done easily without more instruction.
D - Some look at it, see what needs to be done and does it. No questions, no instructions needed, no issues.
A doesn't learn well with reasoning and doesn't have the intelligence to get the job done right without supervision.
B has the intelligence to get it done, but not without repeatedly moving things to get the desired result, so there is not much reasoning capability there.
C is able to easily use reasoning to accomplish the task once they understood the goal, but didn't have the intelligence to figure it out on their own.
D had the intelligence to see the reasoning it takes to do so easily and efficiently. No one had to tell them and they didn't have to do it over to get it right.
This can be applied to many things in life. Some have the level of intelligence to see the reasoning needed, others can be taught how to reason, others have the ability to know what to do just not how to do it and some just have to be shown every single time.
Thank you, this is what I thought - and the example is very helpful.
I just can't figure our how questions in the two tests are formulated differently and how the intelligence test can distinguish between a problem solved due to innate intelligence and a problem solved because the test taker has been exposed to that kind of problem before.
In other words, how would a Cogat question look like compared to a WISC question? And what would make a WISC question so impossible to prep in advance, at least to a certain extent? I am familiar with Cogat but not familiar with WISC.
On a related note, I think the dishwasher example is great for highlighting the slightly disturbing traits of a society constantly mining for innate ability as opposed to achievement. I find it very anti-humanistic, completely incompatible with the idea of democracy, and just plain cruel.
Most people will learn how to "load the dishwasher" if mentored, if shown the best way to do it, if they practice long enough. Since most of us are not genetically brilliant, most of us need teachers, mentors, and "how to" scripts. This is why tradition mattered throughout centuries, this is why disciplines had a canon, this is why humans passed down knowledge from one generation to another.
Brilliant individuals, by contrast, hardly need any teachers - they may just need some facilitators, if at all. Never mind that many such brilliant individuals often have a penchant for cynicism and for messing with ethical codes too; their IQ may be through the roof, but there is no guarantee for "angelhood" in this.
It is clear, however, that hunting for genetically brilliant individuals is a very rewarding endeavor for highly-placed stake holders.
It's like having your own personal magician - you give a command and the magician quickly brings to you what you ask for without you having to spend time and resources on him. Nice.
Never mind that nobody has figured out yet what exactly the masses of people who need teachers, mentors, eye openers, enlightenment, algorithms, step-by-step instructions, training and resources - are supposed to do in this life.
The more I think about it, the more creepy I find that "Coming Apart" book by Charles Murray. I think he caught in there a phenomenon that has never before happened in the history of mankind.
Humanity has always been divided along class lines, but never before has it been divided along IQ lines.
A totalitarian upper class can certainly be "dethroned" through some kind of revolution...but how does a low-IQ class "dethrone" an upper-IQ class turned totalitarian?
Last edited by syracusa; 03-10-2014 at 09:07 PM..
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