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Of course they do. However private school students are represented at a rate 140% higher than you would expect if public and private schools turned out exactly the same sorts of student. I think that there are some gifted students who do well at public schools but many of them do well DESPITE the poor state of public schools for top students. Of course there are some good public schools in the US, but not around here.
I think the same is true of some private schools. And private schools aren't the be-all, end-all, either. The largest provider of private education in this country is the Catholic church. Only about 20% of private schools are non-sectarian. Not that the Catholic church and others don't have good schools, but IME, the Catholic and Lutheran schools are on a par with the public schools.
Students need to be prepared for group work and taught how to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould
You've got it.
Unless students are capable of and have been taught appropriate self-evaluation, shared accountability... skills, the whole group project experience is a huge waste of time.
What would happen if you sent out a group of kids to play basketball without ever teaching them the rules of the game or helping them learn the skills? The athletically inclined kids who had some hoop skills would run circles around the short, out-of-shape kids. It would be a frustrating experience for all concerned.
But spend time getting everyone up to speed and then put together teams that are well matched in skills and abilities and they could flat have some fun.
I was not talking about different assignments in the same class. I was talking about different classes entirely.
Then we are talking about two entirely different things. I'm talking about differentiation within the classroom. About the notion that the top can be challenged within the same classroom as bottom kids.
Example: My son (GT, honors student, A in the class) was put in a Social Studies group project (middle school / inclusion class) with 2 special ed kids (one mild LD and one moderate autism) and a queen bee mean girl who has a 58 average in the class, and another below average student (girl who has never made honor roll). The group got an F on the project. The roles were defined, so not like my kid could do everyone's work.
So the teachers said any groups with F's can come after school to pull their grade up. So, my son goes after school to add to the Powerpoint -- the ONLY one that did -- for 2 days and pulls the GROUP's grade up to an A.
Later that month, the SpEd student in that group (the mild LD one) got "Student of the Month". MY son has never received SOM even though these things happen all the time!!! But often, these awards go to SpEd kids to make them feel good.
Oh and he sits between the 2 SpEd kids on a daily basis, so any adhoc daily grouping is with this same group (and has been since Sept), even though I've asked it be rotated.
Just another good reason not to vote for liberals. I am sorry for your son's misfortune. Those kids with issues need help, but your son and others should not pay the bill and be punished for being normal or above normal. Good luck, let your son know you love him, and keep pushing the system to give your son the chance to excel!
If you don't think the top kids aren't hurt by our current model, check with your friends and relatives who live in areas with a lot of high tech industries and ask them for their observations on the workforce. Our area has SAS, Cisco, IBM... biotech and pharmaceutical companies... We also have four Asian markets as big as a decent size Kroger within five miles.
A neighbor who works for Cisco and is occasionally called upon to help with recruiting says the joke is that American students are high self esteem, low skilled. These are the top students, the ones with degrees in computer technology.
Asian students are eating our kids for lunch. Metaphorically speaking, of course, as they seem to be awful nice people.
For now, they are coming over here for the higher end jobs. How long will it be before the businesses move over there?
The idea that the top kids will turn out all right regardless of an ineffective and inefficient public education system is incorrect.
The notion that top students should serve as role models, teacher's aides, and motivators for the less fortunate borders on the criminal. Why should their futures be sacrificed so that less capable students can benefit from their higher level problem-solving and discussions?
Yes, that is the crux. Punish the better ones in order to placate the less capable. Academic Socialism.
Gifted students have to take their own education in hand. There was no such thing as a TaG program when I was in school decades ago, but there were some bright spots. My trig class only had seven students. We flew through the whole textbook in 13 weeks, and continued to differential calculus with a talented teacher. Physics was not so much fun, but I finished the first two day mid-term in 30 minutes. When I handed it in I told the teacher I was bored to tears. He handed me a sophomore college textbook, pointed me to an empty classroom, and said, "The answers to the odd numbered questions are in the back of the book." I worked through most of it myself. ...
With the addition of sports and school plays, plus a weekend job, I managed to stay busy. My older brother was majoring in physics in college, so I had some interesting scientific magazines and journals to read at home. High school history classes were grim wastes of time, though civics classes and business law were interesting. My fascination with history didn't catch fire until my sophomore year of college, thanks to an excellent professor.
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Instead of being handed a college textbook and sent to an empty room, imagine how much you could have learned with a talented teacher and a couple dozen sharp classmates.
We are shortchanging the top students by expecting them to take their own education in hand. How does a second grader do that? Or a student who is the first one in the family headed to college, where there are no scientific journals, no books, maybe not even internet at home?
Then we are talking about two entirely different things. I'm talking about differentiation within the classroom. About the notion that the top can be challenged within the same classroom as bottom kids.
Even I.E.P. accommodations can get parents up in arms. Why should my kid have answer all the questions when some students only have to answer every other one? Why should my kid have to turn in a 10 page written report when other students get by with an oral report?
By college, many of the accommodations that helped students make it through high school are no longer an option. Disability Services of most colleges will provide a quiet testing area, extended test times, tutors and class notes, but that's about it. Students all have to master the same curriculum, do the same work to receive the same credit.
I have worked with many families who are surprised to find out that a modified curriculum is no longer an option.
Nor are the top students expected to help the slower students along.
It's an eye opener for many.
By limiting the educational opportunities for the top students, dumbing down the curriculum for all students, and modifying academic expectations for SpEd students, we can help them make it through high school.
LOL.. the real gifted students actually knew the words BEFORE even playing bingo! (they heard it once, grasped it, and knew it well enough for the test without study aids like BINGO games).
And re: the SpEd / IEP students...their IEPs often state a success measure as a "B" in the classs... so they always get B's or above (often A's; they are taking modified tests)...and then end up on Honor Rolls and High Honor Rolls, and with high GPA's! In our district, most special ed students are on the honor rolls...a much higher percentage than regular ed and even Honors students (in middle school, honors students are graded tougher, there is no "GPA bump", so honors students are often NOT on the Honor Rolls).
I do wonder how the colleges KNOW (especially those not requiring SAT?!) since their IEP/SpEd status does not have to be disclosed on the application. No wonder a huge percent of college students require remediation!
And, it is no wonder why we are weakening in STEM when we don't support our top students. We hjave a 99 percentile Math kid who taught himself computer programming (7th grade)...he learns little in public school and it's been so frustrating. We are thinking about private high schools.
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