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I have said repeatedly that not everyone should go to college. However, it's almost as if there's a bias against college on this forum. Pretty much every stat says college grads are better off and even that people who go for awhile and drop out are better off than those who didn't.
Yes, I think kids who have a specific plan to do some sort of skilled blue collar work might be better served by going to a trade school. But they should have a plan. Absent that, there is little harm or risk in taking general education classes - at a community college if needed due to poor high school grades or finances.
Chris/"Not Peter" (OP), please read my post on your thread on the work forum.
You got that right! It's sort of like the "child-free" contingent on the parenting forum, who talk about the evils of having kids at all, ever! Sadly, we have teachers, and people with advanced degrees themselves talking this way.
Interesting. I think the folks who seem to have an anti-college bias are about the same in number as those who will tell you that without a college degree you will surely be unemployed and homeless or at least dead ended in a minimum wage job at 25. The truth is somewhere in the middle. In any event, the thing that IS necessary for success is a well thought out plan and the discipline and desire to actually work at something. If one doesn't have the plan (normal at HS graduation), but does have the discipline and desire then a CC is a great place to start and take classes while you figure it out. Taking a couple classes while you work never hurt anyone. I do think that before one begins to borrow large sums of money for college, you'd better have a plan in place. The kids who don't have the discipline to stick with stuff and borrow years of tuition money because they are being told that they "need" college are being ill advised.
Interesting. I think the folks who seem to have an anti-college bias are about the same in number as those who will tell you that without a college degree you will surely be unemployed and homeless or at least dead ended in a minimum wage job at 25. The truth is somewhere in the middle. In any event, the thing that IS necessary for success is a well thought out plan and the discipline and desire to actually work at something. If one doesn't have the plan (normal at HS graduation), but does have the discipline and desire then a CC is a great place to start and take classes while you figure it out. Taking a couple classes while you work never hurt anyone. I do think that before one begins to borrow large sums of money for college, you'd better have a plan in place. The kids who don't have the discipline to stick with stuff and borrow years of tuition money because they are being told that they "need" college are being ill advised.
I disagree with the bold. In terms of numbers, the "college isn't for everyone"; "we should encourage more people to go into the trades"; "Bill Freaking Gates is a college drop-out and look how rich he is"; "how many physicians are millionaires" group is much larger than any group who thinks differently.
I don't think there's a person on this board who has ever said "everyoneshould go to college". What I have said, many times over is: who should be making the decision about a person's "college material" potential? We get lots of people who talk about the system in some (most?) European countries where only a certain percentage of kids get groomed to go to college, in some cases with the decision being made at 10-12 years of age, as a great system. I like to give the late bloomers a chance. I've seen/known a few, who did well once they found their passion. We get others who talk vaguely about some students just not being "college material". I find that an abhorrent way to talk about perfectly normal kids. IRL, I have seen some people I would have never pegged as college material if I were prone to doing so go on to get college degrees. I have also said that people should have the opportunity to go as far as they can and want, and I've said that I don't think anyone's career choice should be carved in stone (as it is in some European countries) at age 16 or even 18.
I have never seen anyone post with surety about those who do not choose college experiencing homelessness, unemployment, or being stuck in minimum wage jobs at 25. In fact, I've never seen anyone on this board discuss homelessness as related to college attendance (or not). I have posted statistics that show a higher probability of unemployment, and lower earnings in people with lower educational attainment. As far as minimum wage jobs at 25, well it seems like a lot of people have those right now, in this economy. I know a lot of young adults, and by 25 most of the college educated of them are in professional jobs or still in grad school. I don't know any college graduates in a minimum wage job at 30, though I'm sure they're out there.
I don't know how this thread got all caught up in borrowing money. Who among us hasn't borrowed money to buy a car? The average student debt for an undergrad is under $30,000, about the price of a new, late model car. It seems very OK in this society borrow for that, but somehow it's bad to borrow for the education.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-06-2014 at 02:28 PM..
We get lots of people who talk about the system in some (most?) European countries where only a certain percentage of kids get groomed to go to college, in some cases with the decision being made at 10-12 years of age, as a great system. I like to give the late bloomers a chance. I've seen/known a few, who did well once they found their passion. We get others who talk vaguely about some students just not being "college material". I find that an abhorrent way to talk about perfectly normal kids. IRL, I have seen some people I would have never pegged as college material if I were prone to doing so go on to get college degrees. I have also said that people should have the opportunity to go as far as they can and want, and I've said that I don't think anyone's career choice should be carved in stone (as it is in some European countries) at age 16 or even 18.
I totally agree....(mother of a couple of late bloomers here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
I don't know how this thread got all caught up in borrowing money. Who among us hasn't borrowed money to buy a car? The average student debt for an undergrad is under $30,000, about the price of a new, late model car. It seems very OK in this society borrow for that, but somehow it's bad to borrow for the education.
Now you are taking things out of context. I have never said it's bad to borrow money for education. I did it, my husband did it, my kids did it. There is a vast difference between a secured loan (like the car you mentioned) where you have to have an income and credit check to prohibit you from borrowing more that you are able to repay - the lender as well as the borrower are, to some extent protected. I'm not suggesting that for student loans but too many kids are encouraged to "just get a student loan" regardless of their diligence in school and their probablility of finishing or whether the degree obtained is one that will ever justify the amount of money borrowed. "Just get a student loan" seems to be the mantra - the student loan I don't have issue with. The "just" I do. Ending up owing $30K if you actually have a degree and a reasonable chance of employment - great - that's exactly how it's supposed to work. Ending up owing $20K (or more) with no degree - just a bunch of classes you "kinda sorta" went to because you felt you "had" to go to college even though your poor grades and not much motivation....that is a problem. But you are right - student loans is another topic all together. It's more the pressure I see some kids under to do something they are not interested in or ready for. And I don't know what the answer is to that one.
What it comes down to is that you should do what best advances your aims in light of your current situation. That may or may not involve college, and for some portion of people, be them a majority or not, it won't. The answer to the OP's question is yes, because if people have done it it is by definition possible. What the norm is or what's better for more people is irrelevant for individual-level decision-making, because the average person is a statistical phantom, the mathematical smoothing of millions of disparate outcomes a large percentage of which fall on the other side of that average. There is a large chance that your aims and current situation bear no resemblance to the average person or "the norm".
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom
Now, I will not argue that when one looks at "all" jobs - there is definitely an upward skew for those jobs that require college. No arguement there. At all. My disagreement is with the idea that college somehow is this magic guarantee of a higher paycheck that everyone should aspire to attain. I would advise a person who is trying to figure out what they wanted to do, to look at what they enjoy, how (and where)they want to live, and how and where they want to work. And then make an educated plan on how to best achieve that. I would suggest they do that prior to spending a large amount of money on an education that is not going to serve them well (be it college or trade school or whatever else).
Exactly. Correlation doesn't imply causation; for example, just because jobs that require doctorates pay much more does not mean it is a good idea for huge numbers of people to pursue doctorates, because the demand for those jobs may not be there. College degrees in isolation don't do anything for people's earnings or career. What lifts people up is having the right kind of skills for the right number of skilled job slots the economy needs being acquired by the right number of people. When that's not happening society is either over-schooled, under-schooled, or schooled in the wrong ways.
This applies to going to college to acquire job/career skills and expecting to recoup what one "invested" into it, rather than going purely for an education without expectation of recouping any of the cost or using it for a career; the latter doesn't count as over-schooling for economic purposes. The latter is what college is designed for and supposed to provide, but aside from those born into wealth they live off of very few take this approach, mostly because they're the only ones who can afford it.
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