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Well, I'm going back a bit farther than the 80's. I do believe that we did a fair job of educating our kids in the mid 1900's (damn it makes me feel old to type that ). I'm not sure when we started to slip but there was a time when we were the top. We're middle of the pack now.
I guess we all forget about the "education crisis" that we experienced after the Sputnik launch.
Before our "greatest generation" won WWII, they were known as the "Lost Generation" of the Depression.
Conclusion: The further into the past we look, the rosier our memories become.
Several posters, I think, have hit on the key point: we try to education way more children than we did "back in the day". While this is generally a positive thing, it allows for an unromantic comparison between today's "average" student and the elite and/or segregated student from the early 20th c.
As to the kids for whom version 19XX didn't work many of them don't belong on a college prep program. They should be in a program that is more fitting their ability and goals.
Yup. Nowadays the thinking is that everyone automatically *must* be college material, and have exec or managerial positions, or be a great white collar success. A fallacy indeed, yet teachers and schools are supposed to be able to "shoehorn" all these kids into white collar successes. Like squeezing a circle into a square.
Many kids will never be suited for college, and will not do well in school. If they do well in school, it might be through tutors and the kids making gargantuan efforts, which shows me that it's not a natural talent. They could very well be blue collar smart rather than "book smart," but oh boy you can't mention this to parents because they'll lose it! To them, Little Johnny has got one hell of a great white collar career future that is directly dependent upon the teachers he has and the school, even if his brain is just not suited for that.
Do you realize that kids have spent more than that 10,000 hours with their parents before the set foot in kindergarten (this is assuming the parents work and kids spend an average of 6 hours a day with their parents.)?
I never said parents dont affect students. I am arguing against people who claim that school has little effect on students. Parents, teachers, and the students' school environment ALL have huge effects on kids, and the way they are shaped into adults and into their society. I am not downplaying parents, I am simply choosing to not downplay the school's role. Students learn a LOT of habits in school (cognitive, emotional, and physical behaviors) that will shape them for the rest of their lives. There is no doubt at all about this. School teaches values in thought and action, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly. And it doesn't matter how subtle or obvious it is, it's all affecting the student.
I never said parents dont affect students. I am arguing against people who claim that school has little effect on students. Parents, teachers, and the students' school environment ALL have huge effects on kids, and the way they are shaped into adults and into their society. I am not downplaying parents, I am simply choosing to not downplay the school's role. Students learn a LOT of habits in school (cognitive, emotional, and physical behaviors) that will shape them for the rest of their lives. There is no doubt at all about this. School teaches values in thought and action, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly. And it doesn't matter how subtle or obvious it is, it's all affecting the student.
Actually school has little impact. If school had a lot of impact we wouldn't have nearly the problems we do educating kids. Think about it. Peers have the most impact by far. Family sets the stage and as long as peers don't reject what the family taught, family has impact. Teachers have little impact. Schools have little impact. I WISH we had half the impact people think we do.
Parents are the biggest pre school influence on kids and they do set the stage. After that it's peers (parents impact here is in choosing where their children grow up which limits their choices for peers). School is WAY off in the distance. School seems to solidify the peer relationship. I get the impression that many kids think school is something they must endure and enduring the same thing tends to bond us to others around us. That's why we like haunted houses and scary movies. They help us bond to those who experience them with us.
You are confusing the peer influence with school influence. Trust me. School has little impact compared to peers.
Plain wrong. The established environment and activities that students undergo for 7 hours a day, have huge effects on development. If you cant see this, I'm sorry, but that is your lack of vision.
I suppose, to your credit, a lot of people don't realize this very simple observation.
Plain wrong. The established environment and activities that students undergo for 7 hours a day, have huge effects on development. If you cant see this, I'm sorry, but that is your lack of vision.
I suppose, to your credit, a lot of people don't realize this very simple observation.
Sorry but you are missing the simple observation. As I said, I WISH school had as much impact as people think it has. What you are doing is common though. You are confusing the impact of peers with the impact of schools because students attend school with peers.
What you need to do to see this is sit in on classes in two different schools. One in an underprivileged area and the other in a privileged area. You will see teachers trying to teach the same subjects but with totally different results. Why are the results different? Because the students are different. As I said, I WISH school had as much impact as you think it does. I'd settle for half the impact you think it does. I know it doesn't. I know that peers trump school. In fact, by the teen years they trump parents too. What kids get out of school is largely determined by their peers attitude about school.
I've taught in two very different schools with very different outcomes. I'm the same teacher. Why were the outcomes different? Ans: Because the students were different. It's not the schools. It's the students. Many people cannot separate the two though because you attend school with the students so you see them as one in the same. They're not. I know from experience that it's the students that make the school not the school that makes the students.
I'm not confusing anything. You still assume that I am saying there are no other factors aside from school. Just because your students were different at two different schools doesn't mean that the students aren't affected dramatically by schooling and the school environment over their academic lifetimes.
Welcome to my ignore list again, which I reserve for people who are unable to argue without persistent logical fallacy.
Actually school has little impact. If school had a lot of impact we wouldn't have nearly the problems we do educating kids. Think about it. Peers have the most impact by far. Family sets the stage and as long as peers don't reject what the family taught, family has impact. Teachers have little impact. Schools have little impact. I WISH we had half the impact people think we do.
Parents are the biggest pre school influence on kids and they do set the stage. After that it's peers (parents impact here is in choosing where their children grow up which limits their choices for peers). School is WAY off in the distance. School seems to solidify the peer relationship. I get the impression that many kids think school is something they must endure and enduring the same thing tends to bond us to others around us. That's why we like haunted houses and scary movies. They help us bond to those who experience them with us.
You are confusing the peer influence with school influence. Trust me. School has little impact compared to peers.
Very true, particularly now that peers are in contact via technology 24/7.
I'm not confusing anything. You still assume that I am saying there are no other factors aside from school. Just because your students were different at two different schools doesn't mean that the students aren't affected dramatically by schooling and the school environment over their academic lifetimes.
Welcome to my ignore list again, which I reserve for people who are unable to argue without persistent logical fallacy.
I'm telling you that school doesn't have "dramatic" impact (to use your word). It just doesn't. I wish it did. My job would be so much easier. I do see peers having a dramatic impact. I've seen major changes in students because of peer pressure in short periods of time. I've never seen schools have that kind of impact. Not even close.
Sorry but you're not separating peers from school. Peers have a major impact. Schools don't. If you'd ever taught you'd realize this. Why people imagine that teachers and schools have a major impact is beyond me. The time isn't there and we're competing with peers. There's one of me in the classroom and 29 peers and you think I'm the one having the major impact? Not likely.
Very true, particularly now that peers are in contact via technology 24/7.
Good point. Kids have way more contact with peers through social media these days than in the past. They seem to have a need today to be in constant contact and have the constant approval of their peers for everything they do like has never been seen before. It'll be interesting to see how this change plays out. One thing I can say is we're raising team players. In fact they don't know what to do if they're on their own.
I know my dd is NEVER without her phone. I swear I should just have the thing surgically implanted, lol. Work must be torture for her as she has to hand her phone over when she gets there. I'm glad that they do that. It gives her some time when she's dealing with people face to face.
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). I'm not sure when we started to slip but there was a time when we were the top. We're middle of the pack now.
