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Old 11-02-2014, 02:39 AM
 
305 posts, read 282,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmb501 View Post
It would seem like being nice to them would make them want to be nice to you, but, with kids that's not how it works. They take advantage of any ambiguities in the rules to try to get away with things their regular teachers would not allow, and they have to have clear rules and consequences in order to successfully behave like normal human beings. They love to play, are curious about everything, and are not afraid to test boundaries, especially if they are unclear. What would be common sense for us isn't to them. For instance, we would know not stand on top of a desk that probably can't support our weight; a tween or teen, though, would not, or would be more interested in impressing his friends to care.

Usually if the kids are throwing books to begin with, it is a sign that you, apparently, have no authority in the classroom. They are testing you and trying to run over you, because they know that their teacher would never allow them to do anything like that. If you let them continue, that's like saying, "sure, run over me. I have no authority to stop you." In that case, the students' behavior will probably escalate as they try more and more things that are normally against the rules, especially if it's middle school. Sometimes, if you even let it get to that point, you will have lost control over the class to the point that you can't regain it, and calling administration may not help you, because, although the whole class is now apparently out of control, the whole class didn't get that way on their own; someone started it. If you can't find the ringleader, you may not be able to regain control at all. Also, don't depend on the kids for any real info. They consider telling on their buddies, even when they are truly in the wrong, "snitching," and they will probably either flat-out refuse, claim they don't know, or make up a fake name and claim that the person who started it isn't even in class. Plus, if you actually gave them permission to disobey their teacher's rules, that would make you at fault, wouldn't it?

Kids need concrete rules. You can't just tell them to "use common sense," because they haven't really developed that yet. A kid may think, "well, things are different today, and if I can hurl a book ten feet, I should be able to hurl it twenty feet or maybe toward my friend's face. If I can throw soft cover books, I may be able to get away with throwing hard cover books, too, as long as I don't throw them too far. For that matter, if I can throw books, it's probably definitely okay for me to throw paper balls, airplanes, and stress balls in the classroom. I'm also sure she won't mind if I talk to my buddies and shout across the room so that I can't hear her when she tells me to stop. Man, I'm free today to try anything I want!" Give them an inch, and they will take miles. It takes weeks to establish effective classroom routines; you are only there for a day or two. If you change one thing, get ready to have a fight on your hands if you don't make the rules crystal clear.

If the schools where you sub are anything like the places I go, though, you'll probably learn to be mean very quickly, because the kids will come in acting like they believe you have no authority and will attempt to disobey your every request. Your job is to show them that they must obey you; otherwise, there will be consequences. The best way to do this, or so I've heard, is to find the two or three students who are bold and start out trying you and to send them out of class the first time they act up so that the others fall in line. I've subbed in classrooms, though, where it looks like literally the whole class comes in talking and playing. If you can't get them to sit in their seats, you can really do nothing with them without help. It's all a game of bluffing, following the established rules and procedures closely, and having an established set of rules and consequences in case anything does happen. It can be confusing, though, if you aren't familiar with the school or their procedures and expectations for subs. Some schools appear to have none; you'll struggle at these places regardless of what you try, unless you know the teachers and students. Others expect you to keep the students under your thumb; I do okay in these places, because I know what's expected of me, and the students know what is expected of them.


11) "If the schools where you sub are anything like the places I go, though, you'll probably learn to be mean very quickly, because the kids will come in acting like they believe you have no authority and will attempt to disobey your every request."

You should be firm on the broad rules I outlined in Response # 9, but you shouldn't be mean just to prove you're the boss. If you had good control of the class and the principal walked in and started nit-picking every little thing you were doing wrong, would you feel like that is fair? When you stop a student from talking to their neighbor, even though both are speaking in normal conversational tones and they are both done with the assignment, how does that make them feel? Just like how you feel when the principal gives you a hard time. And when you are being unfair to them, it is unreasonable to expect they are going to help you in such example, so don't be offended when those students then refuse to tell you who is acting up when you go to them for help.


12) "Your job is to show them that they must obey you; otherwise, there will be consequences."

This is a bad approach to take though. Kids don't really care about minor consequences. It's not like adults where if you get a $50 parking ticket, it makes you not park there again. If a kid gets a strike against them or something, who cares? You don't get anything for not having any strikes and worst-case scenario, some random sub doesn't like them whom they may never see again. Oh gosh, how can they go on?

With this line of reasoning, you have to step up to major consequences right away. And if you are using major consequences, like suspending a kid for talking too loudly, what is your consequence going to be if a kid slaps another kid in the face? Are you going to only suspend the kid too? If so, you are telling the kid that slapping someone in the face is no worse than talking too loudly, which tells the kid that slapping someone in the face is normal and can be done anytime they don't get everything they want. That's a TERRIBLE lesson to give! And we all know the school isn't really going to directly expel the student just for slapping someone.

So even though it seems like you get better behavior by being overly strict, you actually get worse behavior.


13) "The best way to do this, or so I've heard, is to find the two or three students who are bold and start out trying you and to send them out of class the first time they act up so that the others fall in line."

That will work if you have specifically been told that you can send as many students out of the room as possible and there will be an immediate and severe punishment for doing so. If you can only send 3 kids out though, the kids will quickly figure out the limit, determine who can afford to go to the office, and then have the rest of the kids act up. What are you going to do about them?

Also, if no real punishment is given for getting sent out of the room, then who cares? They have 5 minutes where they don't have to listen to you and since you treat them as sub-human as explained in Response # 1, that is 5 minutes less torture than they need to deal with for their day. And since getting sent out of the room is desirable for them, other kids will start acting up too because they want 5 minutes away from you too!


14) "I've subbed in classrooms, though, where it looks like literally the whole class comes in talking and playing. If you can't get them to sit in their seats, you can really do nothing with them without help. "

I assume this happens when they come into your class from lunch or gym? In that case, just give them 5 minutes to settle down and then begin the class. If you try to begin class right away, it's likely you give away 5 minutes just trying to control their behavior during the whole class, so you might as well give away 5 minutes right up-front, let the student wrap-up their post-gym assessments of the game they just played, and let them give you a real chance to teach after those 5 minutes are over, as opposed to having them be determined to not listen during the entire class because you rudely interrupted their conversation.


15) "It's all a game of bluffing, following the established rules and procedures closely, and having an established set of rules and consequences in case anything does happen."

If kids are so insistent on testing you (as you claim,) why would think bluffing (saying one thing and doing another) would be effective?

I think when you sub, you should compare your personal philosophy with that of the teacher and decide what parts of the teacher's philosophy you know you're not going to do and say something like, "I know your teacher expects you to do this thing, but we don't have to do this thing if you can get all your work done."

In that case, it appears as though you are working with them to have a fun day, but you have still baked the expectation that their work needs to get done as part of that agreement. And most kids are not advanced enough (the ones who don't want to do work anyway) to try to separate the 2 statements from each other. They are going to have fun today, so why argue with that! And you still haven't abandoned your personal convictions on how a class should be run, so there is nothing wrong with using the above approach.


16) "It can be confusing, though, if you aren't familiar with the school or their procedures and expectations for subs."

In that situation, I would just stick to the broad rules I outlined in Response # 9 and any others that you feel are important.


17) "Some schools appear to have none; you'll struggle at these places regardless of what you try, unless you know the teachers and students."

I disagree here. If the expectation is that you will struggle, then any decently positive experience will be viewed as you being super proficient in being a sub by the administration. "Wow, he got that class to do 1/2 the worksheet! Usually they do nothing! He must be very talented!"


18) "Others expect you to keep the students under your thumb; I do okay in these places, because I know what's expected of me, and the students know what is expected of them."

From a stress perspective, that is probably true, especially if the students are willing to do what is expected of them. However, looking at results, if you fall even one peg underneath what the students normally do, you will probably be viewed as a failure. "The other 10 subs all got the students to do the worksheet. Why did they not finish 3 questions out of 50 on kmb's worksheet? This is totally unacceptable! Put him on the do-not-call list if this happens again!"


Anyway, that addresses everything you wrote to me. I saw somewhere that you wanted a comprehensive manual of what to do and what not to do, so I tried to create something like that by writing such a detailed response to yours. A back-and-forth discussion is welcome here, but I expect you to respond in the same depth of detail as I wrote to you if I am going to take your claim of wanting a textbook of what to do in each situation seriously.

So I responded to your initial post with 4 replies that are numbered from 1-18. You should respond to each Response # in each reply. So when replying to this specific post, you should write: Answer # 11, Answer # 12, etc.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:27 AM
 
13,254 posts, read 33,507,910 times
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I'd like to suggest we keep this thread open to all posters and not make it a back and forth between two people.

As the Terms of Service for this site states,
Quote:
This is not a chat room - when people hi-jack threads by posting messages that are of interest to only few people, the threads often stop being useful discussions of initial topics.
I don't mean that kmb501 not respond if she feels so inclined but that she should not feel that she has to answer each and every point in any posters posts.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inged View Post
Paperback books are soft cover. Even if you wound up and threw as hard as you can, you couldn't hurt someone with a paperback book and if the students are seated, there's no way you could throw that hard.

That approach forces the students to take responsibility for their own actions. If they cannot clean up afterward, they can only blame themselves. If a teacher tells them they cannot do something, they have the ability to pretend to themselves they can handle it, but the mean teacher won't let them.

You are trying to make the students take the responsibility for themselves with that approach with you guiding them along the way.

This is about the craziest idea I've read. I'm a librarian. Throwing books breaks their spines. Paperback books that have their spines broken cannot be repaired. Students that throw books can and do get detention. Teachers that throw books at students can get written up and subs that do so will not be asked back.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:09 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
This is about the craziest idea I've read. I'm a librarian. Throwing books breaks their spines. Paperback books that have their spines broken cannot be repaired. Students that throw books can and do get detention. Teachers that throw books at students can get written up and subs that do so will not be asked back.
I thought so too..... until I read the below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inged View Post
Secondly, kids learn through trial and error. If the desks in your school are very flimsy, the desk might give way and the kid will fall onto the floor, which will result in all of his friends laughing at him. Being laughed at will encourage the kid to not do it again. If the desk was previously in good condition, you can charge the family for the cost to replace the desk. You will not have trouble finding out which kid it was because everyone will be laughing at him and the kids will be eager to tell as many people as possible about it, so you could simply ask if you happen to not see it. Additionally, the family will then be motivated to start taking an interest in their kid's life if they do not already so because they will now be hit where many adults only care: the pocketbook. Even if the parent really doesn't care about the kid, they probably care about their money, so the financial cost of paying for the desk will encourage them to start parenting their kid more.

And there's really no downside to such a method. You really can't get gravely hurt from a height of 3 feet. If you fall wrong, maybe you get a scab. So what? I got scabs all the time when I played outside growing up. It's how you learn. At their age, the scab will go away in a couple days and the pain of falling will be a much stronger check on the kid's behavior than you will be.
This piece of advice will not only get you fired, but sued too.

I gather one of the students, a precocious one with a mischievous streak, actually did respond to the OP's invitation for advice. That, or an idiot who writes well.

By the way, this stuff is an example of why asking the students for they appraisal is not always helpful. While some may sincerely try to help you, there will be those that will use it as an opportunity to set you up for failure.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:28 AM
 
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Inged,


I.

1.) I used the phrase “normal human beings,”because they know how to behave correctly, but the behavior usually degenerates when their regular teacher is not in the room.

2.) I don't resent natural curiosity, but I would rather the students explore something productive, not “How to Give Guest Teachers a Hard Time 101.” They could probably write a book about that; actually, I kind of wish they would. Then, I would know all of their tricks and how to prevent them.

3.) The kid could damage property and injure himself! How could that ever be okay? If that happens, the kid with a now broken something could complain to the office, and say, “Well, Ms. Kmb501 was watching the class, and she let us do it.” I'm sure you know what would happen then; I would probably not be allowed to sub at that school again. I also might have to face other legal action.


II.

4.) Again, you are assuming they will use common sense; I know from experience that they will not. I've already tried to be the “fun sub.” It doesn't work at schools where students routinely run over teachers to get their way. It just encourages them to make their own rules. Besides, I wouldn't even allow AP kids to throw their textbooks. To put this another way, what would you do if you wanted to cross the street, but there was a kid holding a stop sign? You would probably think that the kid had no power and would cross anyway. Now, what good would it do if the kid told you, “okay,you can cross if you play this game with me.” You know that the kid has no authority, so why should you listen to any deals he or she tries to make with you? You're free to do whatever you wish. That's the way some of the kids perceive subs. You have to prove otherwise. You have to call your traffic guard friend and threaten to write them a ticket. Then, they will realize that maybe you have a little authority, even though they were sure before that you did not, and pay more attention to your rules.

5.) “Busy work” is a bad idea, period. If it's not for a grade, there is no reason for me to even give it out, unless I want it turned into paper airplanes or triangles.

...) You are right; subs are not perceived as normal teachers, so why would my presence motivate them to do anything else except either have me do the work for them or ask me inappropriate personal questions, make fun of my affect, and attempt to embarrass me into leaving them alone?

…) Sometimes, interacting with the students helps. I don't know to what extent it helps, though, and it's actually a little hard to do, because the kids do treat you like an unwelcome stranger. I suppose I could bring an ice breaker exercise or two with me and see if that does anything to calm them down. Kids do sometimes like to talk about themselves.

6.) Consider this. If ten people are now out of their seats, why are they out of their seats? Should I send all ten of those students to the office because they broke a rule, or should I try to get to the bottom of it and find out what happened? Of course, I should try to find out what happened. The kid who was up because someone stabbed him in the leg with a pencil and the student who is up looking for her paper that someone threw into the trashcan don't deserve to be in detention with the one or ones who caused the chaos, right? That's the way administration looks at it.

7.) This is good advice, but, you see, I can't read people that well. Maybe it comes with experience, but I'm not very good at it. I've had kids tell me things, but my response is usually, “Thanks for telling, but I can't do anything unless I see it myself.” I do appreciate when they do that, though. Also, it would be a lot easier to write their names down if I actually knew their names. It's pretty hard to memorize 150 names and faces in one day. Seating charts help tremendously, but I usually have to use my own system, because none are left for me, yet the teachers still expect detailed notes of every little deviant behavior and the names of the kids who did it.

8.) Oh, they will definitely complain if there is physical damage to their classrooms, which I've seen, and if there are fights between students because the sub “couldn't get control of the class.” There will definitely be complaints.


III

9.) I'm usually so deeply offended by the students' decision to disobey me, I stop wanting to do anything with them and start just wanting to restore order. I could let them have a little freedom if they didn't turn it all into a power struggle, but they do. Plus, there are only certain things I can safely allow. Alot of what you mentioned is against school policy. For instance, at some schools where I sub, the expectation is that students remain silent while completing their work. I also cannot make them skip lunch.

10.) I don't know what you mean. If I come in allowing what their teacher doesn't allow, they will try to test my boundaries, and I will have to fight to establish new boundaries. It's a lot easier just to keep the old boundaries in place.


Wow, that was a bit. Would anyone else like to comment?

Last edited by krmb; 11-02-2014 at 06:41 AM..
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:48 AM
 
305 posts, read 282,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
This is about the craziest idea I've read. I'm a librarian. Throwing books breaks their spines. Paperback books that have their spines broken cannot be repaired. Students that throw books can and do get detention. Teachers that throw books at students can get written up and subs that do so will not be asked back.

I think the spines break more from either repeated use or from being stepped on more than being thrown.

I know I've casually thrown books on my bed when I used to be a student. I never had to repair a book for it.

Maybe if they threw books everyday, there would be some residual damage, but I don't think a 1-time deal would cause unreparable damage.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:50 AM
 
305 posts, read 282,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I thought so too..... until I read the below.



This piece of advice will not only get you fired, but sued too.

I gather one of the students, a precocious one with a mischievous streak, actually did respond to the OP's invitation for advice. That, or an idiot who writes well.

By the way, this stuff is an example of why asking the students for they appraisal is not always helpful. While some may sincerely try to help you, there will be those that will use it as an opportunity to set you up for failure.

How could there be a lawsuit? Standing on a desk 3 feet off the ground will never result in a serious injury. Going "ow that hurts" isn't a serious injury.

Also, if that makes you get fired, why does kmb keep getting offers to sub?
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:14 AM
 
50,710 posts, read 36,411,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inged View Post
How could there be a lawsuit? Standing on a desk 3 feet off the ground will never result in a serious injury. Going "ow that hurts" isn't a serious injury.

Also, if that makes you get fired, why does kmb keep getting offers to sub?
This is not the slightest bit true. I work in rehab and have worked in TBI (traumatic brain injury) and have had clients who fell from as low as a 2 foot step ladder and sustained permanent brain injury. It depends on the precise angle of how you land and what part hits the ground with what force. You are being highly irresponsible IMO telling OP she should let the kids hurt themselves if only a bit. This is not the way an adult behaves, sorry.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:43 AM
 
305 posts, read 282,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
This is not the slightest bit true. I work in rehab and have worked in TBI (traumatic brain injury) and have had clients who fell from as low as a 2 foot step ladder and sustained permanent brain injury. It depends on the precise angle of how you land and what part hits the ground with what force. You are being highly irresponsible IMO telling OP she should let the kids hurt themselves if only a bit. This is not the way an adult behaves, sorry.


I assume that is because they banged their head into a metal ladder?

I do know that, yes, if you fall at just the wrong angle, you could sustain permanent brain injury. However, that is an incredibly small chance and you face just as large a chance when playing basketball, walking normally, or walking up stairs and we don't ban those actions, so it is clear the school is OK with taking these chances.

We all hurt ourselves only a little bit growing up outside and didn't suffer lasting damage, so there is no reason a different standard should be applied here.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:44 AM
 
305 posts, read 282,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmb501 View Post
Inged,


I.

1.) I used the phrase “normal human beings,”because they know how to behave correctly, but the behavior usually degenerates when their regular teacher is not in the room.

2.) I don't resent natural curiosity, but I would rather the students explore something productive, not “How to Give Guest Teachers a Hard Time 101.” They could probably write a book about that; actually, I kind of wish they would. Then, I would know all of their tricks and how to prevent them.

3.) The kid could damage property and injure himself! How could that ever be okay? If that happens, the kid with a now broken something could complain to the office, and say, “Well, Ms. Kmb501 was watching the class, and she let us do it.” I'm sure you know what would happen then; I would probably not be allowed to sub at that school again. I also might have to face other legal action.


II.

4.) Again, you are assuming they will use common sense; I know from experience that they will not. I've already tried to be the “fun sub.” It doesn't work at schools where students routinely run over teachers to get their way. It just encourages them to make their own rules. Besides, I wouldn't even allow AP kids to throw their textbooks. To put this another way, what would you do if you wanted to cross the street, but there was a kid holding a stop sign? You would probably think that the kid had no power and would cross anyway. Now, what good would it do if the kid told you, “okay,you can cross if you play this game with me.” You know that the kid has no authority, so why should you listen to any deals he or she tries to make with you? You're free to do whatever you wish. That's the way some of the kids perceive subs. You have to prove otherwise. You have to call your traffic guard friend and threaten to write them a ticket. Then, they will realize that maybe you have a little authority, even though they were sure before that you did not, and pay more attention to your rules.

5.) “Busy work” is a bad idea, period. If it's not for a grade, there is no reason for me to even give it out, unless I want it turned into paper airplanes or triangles.

...) You are right; subs are not perceived as normal teachers, so why would my presence motivate them to do anything else except either have me do the work for them or ask me inappropriate personal questions, make fun of my affect, and attempt to embarrass me into leaving them alone?

…) Sometimes, interacting with the students helps. I don't know to what extent it helps, though, and it's actually a little hard to do, because the kids do treat you like an unwelcome stranger. I suppose I could bring an ice breaker exercise or two with me and see if that does anything to calm them down. Kids do sometimes like to talk about themselves.

6.) Consider this. If ten people are now out of their seats, why are they out of their seats? Should I send all ten of those students to the office because they broke a rule, or should I try to get to the bottom of it and find out what happened? Of course, I should try to find out what happened. The kid who was up because someone stabbed him in the leg with a pencil and the student who is up looking for her paper that someone threw into the trashcan don't deserve to be in detention with the one or ones who caused the chaos, right? That's the way administration looks at it.

7.) This is good advice, but, you see, I can't read people that well. Maybe it comes with experience, but I'm not very good at it. I've had kids tell me things, but my response is usually, “Thanks for telling, but I can't do anything unless I see it myself.” I do appreciate when they do that, though. Also, it would be a lot easier to write their names down if I actually knew their names. It's pretty hard to memorize 150 names and faces in one day. Seating charts help tremendously, but I usually have to use my own system, because none are left for me, yet the teachers still expect detailed notes of every little deviant behavior and the names of the kids who did it.

8.) Oh, they will definitely complain if there is physical damage to their classrooms, which I've seen, and if there are fights between students because the sub “couldn't get control of the class.” There will definitely be complaints.


III

9.) I'm usually so deeply offended by the students' decision to disobey me, I stop wanting to do anything with them and start just wanting to restore order. I could let them have a little freedom if they didn't turn it all into a power struggle, but they do. Plus, there are only certain things I can safely allow. Alot of what you mentioned is against school policy. For instance, at some schools where I sub, the expectation is that students remain silent while completing their work. I also cannot make them skip lunch.

10.) I don't know what you mean. If I come in allowing what their teacher doesn't allow, they will try to test my boundaries, and I will have to fight to establish new boundaries. It's a lot easier just to keep the old boundaries in place.


Wow, that was a bit. Would anyone else like to comment?


1) I am just trying to get you to notice a flaw in your thinking that makes you do things that make the students perceive of you in ways that make them resent you.

When I think of behavior that is not as good as normal, I would say terms such as below-normal, poorly, bad, etc. I wouldn't call them "abnormal." "Abnormal" is a term that is usually associated with mentally ill people.


2) If you identify the curiosity as normal, you can devise ways to interact with it instead of preventing it. You are trying to envision yourself getting a class of 30 smiling students who all think you are a role model when they have never even met you and then getting upset when that doesn't happen and try to change them into what you want them to be. You need to accept the hand you are likely getting and work with making it productive.


3) Well I'm sure our teacher back then weighed more than a tween would, so that disproves the notion that the desk would break under his weight. If anything, with everyone being paranoid of a lawsuit these days, I think the desks could hold even more weight.

I don't really believe you could break anything by falling off a desk unless you had already strained something before that and in that case, you would already not be participating in gym class, so the last thing you would be thinking about doing is getting on a desk.

You should understand that when they were younger, kids will climb on stone walls 5-10 feet off the ground and climb fences that are of similar height and rarely break things. In the stone walls case, these are sometimes on school property and teachers aren't fired over such things.


4) It didn't work out with those groups of students, but that doesn't mean it couldn't with a new group. I mean the "fun sub" should still enforce the rules I gave you the last time out, but you don't need to be stiff and give them 31 rules to follow. Basic common sense can apply in middle school. Maybe not in 2nd grade though.

I don't think you should allow them to throw their textbooks by the way. I was just including the action of throwing textbooks to not be supremely harmful if you had to stop a kid from doing it when you used that line of logic where the kid would somehow justify doing all sorts of things.

For what it's worth, I actually had a similar situation happen to me. A kid said: "HALT!" while I was walking along a sidewalk one day and I stopped for him. He then said: "Give me a quarter or you can't pass." To play devil's advocate with him, I said, "What are you going to do to me if I can't pay?" And I think he said something like "Then you're not using my road!" I actually did have a quarter that time so I gave it to him. Change doesn't mean much to me and if it makes him happy within the context of whatever game he was playing, I'm glad I could contribute.

But I did stop to hear out his story either way, so I don't think it's natural to just ignore an external sound.

And I think that you should try to make the kid feel better if it would mean a lot for you to do a 5-second action.

I think that's what I'm trying to communicate to you. I knew it was very important for the kid for me to give him a quarter. I knew I didn't have to, but I wanted him to have fun with whatever he was doing, so I just gave it to him. You dismiss anything a kid views as important and then try to install your own priorities and you want the kids to accept them instantly whereas they have no reason to do so because you already cut off any communication they could have with you from the start.

What you're doing is buying a few minutes of authority for more torture for youself down the road. You can abstractly strong arm the kids into doing what you want for that 1 class, but when they text their friends to "look out for kmb...shes a real ******" that entire class will already have made their minds up for how they are going to treat you before you even meet them. They will even have a couple of hours to think up ways to annoy you that you can't punish them for. That's just setting yourself up for failure.


5) Because I don't believe every middle school age kid is hell-bent on making their sub's life a living hell. I think you cultivate that mindset by your attitude towards them. I just meant that if they still do the worksheet they were supposed to do, don't freak out if they talk while they are working.

What sorts of inappropriate personal questions are they asking? If it's a simple answer, just give it to them. Maybe they just really wanted to know that one thing and are annoyed you won't tell them. Just because you allow them to ask, say, 5 questions means they are going to ask you 500. I doubt a kid who would act up would care that much in the first place.

It's not hard to interact with them. You're just not good at it. What I would do is look for the first cluster of students who might be not doing their work and sit down and listen to them talk. They will immediately notice their presence and if it is a good class, start doing their work. Even if they are troublemakers, they might talk to you. At that point, you have a chance to say something funny and conclude with: "OK, now get back to your work." If you just gave them a positive experience, they will want more of that and do their work in hopes of getting that. It also opens you up to ask for help if they really wanted to do their work, but were just too scared to ask for help.

I actually would advise not doing the ice breaker things unless it is early in the year. The kids already know each other, so they have no reason to take this seriously.


6) You should find out what happened. But I meant more like if ten people are throwing paper (if you consider that an offense worth getting them in trouble for,) but you don't know which one started throwing paper first and that means you think you can't get them in trouble for that. I think that is insanely stupid to do that.


7) You just make a contact by making the class more fun than it would have been if the regular teacher was there. The student will appreciate it and want to "pay you back" somehow for it, but won't know what they should do, but when you ask them for something, they will do their best to find out about it.

You should be able to at least tell if a kid enjoyed your class or not. So think of those kids as "possible contacts" and filter down to "actual contacts" when you see if there help actually ends up being truthful. That's why I said that whomever they told you is acting up, go interact with that kid and see if he does it again. If he does it again, you know he did it once in your presence and you then know it's highly likely the contact told you the truth. A good kid wouldn't just randomly misbehave that 1 time that you talked to him.

You don't have millions of contacts. For you, you're only going to have 1 or 2 maybe per class. You should be able to remember that amount of names. If you have difficulty, use a sheet of paper at home. "Class 101: Tara, Liam, and Amber are contacts." And do that for each of your classes. I would definitely recommend not carrying that around at school because if someone finds it, they might think you are giving them preferential treatment.


8) Just because you break a teacher's rules doesn't mean there will be physical damage to the classrooms. You shouldn't tolerate physical fights, but if the kids are just having a verbal argument, let that happen, as long as no one's tone is getting raised or standing up.


9) From your subbing experiences, it sounds like the students aren't remaining silent and aren't doing their work. And yet they still call you. So it's clear they don't enforce their own rules. Getting them to do their work, but not be silent is still an improvement. Also, they likely sense you don't want anything to do with them, so if they can't have fun with you, then there's no reason for them to behave because even if they do, you'll tell their teacher they acted up, so what reason do they have to behave?

While you might not be able to make them skip lunch, you can take away enough time so they only have time to eat their lunch quickly and cannot socialize at all and they will not want to miss that time, so that will make them want to behave more.


10) If you are able to keep the old boundaries, that's fine, but I thought from all your posts, you are saying you are unable to do that?

If so, then your best bet is to interact with them on a more lenient level than the teacher does normally to convince the students to behave.

By the way, I had a 4th post with Response #'s 11-18 that I would like you to read and respond to also. Unfortunately, it was relegated to the front of Page # 12 instead, but it is there.
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